I teach advanced college compositions classes and try to make a distinction between "to convince" and "to persuade." My grandfather—a minister who knew koine Greek—always laughed when he heard people on the radio not make any distinction. Do teachers and careful users of the English language still use these words as follows: "to convince" means to be convinced or to know the truth; to "persuade" suggests action or trying to persuade someone of your way of thinking. Examples: I say that "I am convinced that my vote in the upcoming election counts."  Whereas, I should say "I persuaded my students to vote in the 2004 presidential election." Does anyone still make this distinction—and should we?

Hi Chaucer,
Welcome to the Agora, it’s good to have you here.

I have not heard a clear-cut explanation like yours before but it is very "convincing."

The adjective form convincing can be used to assess the quality of a scientific endeavour, whose purpose is supposed be the pursuit of truth.  "The results of your experiments are not convincing enouogh.  You need to get a sharper reading to convince me."

The line of demarcation becomes blurry for me at court of trial.  "The defendant’s side has produced so convincing a piece of evidence that all the jury were persuaded of her innnocence."

I hope you will keep posting to enjoy yourself and to enlighten others,
Flam

convince:v make (someone) agree, understand,
         or realize the truth or validity of something

persuade:v 1: win approval or support for;
        "Carry all before one"; "His speech did not sway the
         voters" [syn: carry, sway]
      2: cause somebody to adopt a certain position, belief,
         or course of action; twist somebody’s arm; "You
         can’t persuade me to buy this ugly vase!"

The problem, then, is that people are convinced that truth is subjective/personal/relative.  Or would that be persuaded?

-Tim

Welcome, Chaucer, and a very good question!

I am so confus that I kan noght seye.

gailr

From yDc’s usage notes:

Synonyms: persuade, induce, prevail, convince
   These verbs mean to succeed in causing a person to do or consent to something. Persuade means to win someone over, as by reasoning or personal forcefulness: Nothing could persuade her to change her mind. To induce is to lead, as to a course of action, by means of influence or persuasion: "Pray what could induce him to commit so rash an action?" (Oliver Goldsmith). One prevails on somebody who resists: "He had prevailed upon the king to spare them" (Daniel Defoe). To convince is to persuade by the use of argument or evidence: The sales clerk convinced me that the car was worth the price.

So it does seem that there is an accepted blending of the meanings of convince and persuade, at least in American English.  Does anyone know what the Oxford might say about it?  (It’s probably online somewhere, but I don’t have time to look for it right now.)

-Tim

I finally decided to put my OED CD to good use. Here’s is what I found about historical usage of "convince" vs. "persuade."

I discovered that there is a distinct difference in historical usage between "persuade" and "convince" and that we do not always honor that distinction today. I, for one, am convinced that the difference is worth fighting for. These words help us to discriminate among subtle meanings. St. Paul in the Bible (Ephesisans, Romans, etc.) carefully distinguished among these meanings. They were not used interchangeably, nor are we to translate them from the Greek or Latin willy-nilly.

Now for the evidence:

"Persuade" is from the Latin, persuadere, to bring over ty talking, induce; urge as desirable. Not in general use until the 16th century. What’s interesting is that this word has the connotation of inducing someone to believe something by "inclining his judgement or desire to it." In definition 2b: "In order to persuade, we address the feelings and the imagination. In order to convince, we address the reasoning faculty." (1846, G. F. Graham Eng. Synonyms).

There is in "persuade" a course of action to get someone to believe or have a conviction.  "Dr. Fenwick has earnestly persuaded me to try horse-exercise." (1801).  There is also the 5th meaning of inducing the doing or practiicing of by argument, entreaty, or the like; to induce or LEAD to by reasoning.  "S Augustin persuadeth with him to leaue the Manichees." (1565)

Now, to "convince" means originally from the Latin "to overcome, conquer, convict, demonstrate." L. convinc-ere or con-altogether, wholly + vincere to conquer.  So we get meanings like "to overcome (a person) in argument; to prove to be wrong, confute.  We are forcing someone to acknowledge a contested position. Or, we are causing a person to admit, as established to his satisfaction, that which is advanced in argument; to bring to acknowledge the truth of; to satisfy or persuade (notice the overlapping) by argument or evidence. To be brought to, or to have, a full conviction; to be firmly persuaded.  "I am convinced . . . and have nothing more to object."
(1875)

Ah, but then I came upon this gem under the definition "to induce, prevail upon, persuade."  1958: Another usage . . . that seems to be becoming frequent in Pennsylvannia and New York, is that of ‘convince’ in the sense of ‘persuade’ e.g., ‘She convinced him to clean the cellar.’

So it seems to be reasonable to conclude, from the OED citations, that there is a distinction between "persuade" and "convince" that is historical and worth keeping in our current usage. When we persuade, we are trying to win someone over, via action, to our position, our way of thinking. On the other hand, when we are convinced or convincing, we are suggesting a firm conclusion, an established position, or even the truth. "I am convinced that U.S. landed on the moon." I hold this as firm conviction. I have already been "persuaded" by reasons or emotions to hold this position. I am there, planted firmly on both feet!

Here are two more famous quotes from OED:

1611 Bible Job xxxii 12: "There was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words."

1671 Milton P.R. III. "Satan stood . . . confuted and convinced Of his weak arguing and fallacious drift."

Here "to convince" connotes "to conquer." Maybe someone tried to "persuade" Job, but he remained unconvinced. He was not conquered in his beliefs to the contrary.

Likewise, Satan was convinced or won over or at least admitted defeat in his line of reasoning and thinking.

"Convinced" suggests a final position after careful reasoning. "Persuaded" suggests, on the other hand, that we have been manipulated and emotionally coerced to accept a position. The media is amazing in persuading us to believe in anything. They appeal to our emotions, reason, and character to move us toward their proposal.

Just a reminder that the OED is available on CD-ROM for about 300 dollars. I purchased the OED in this wonderful format after squinting too often at my Compact OED. The Online version is not as convenient, nor do you own it. So, if you are a logophile, then you NEED this format. It allows you to search and perform cross-references, and to print your results.

Unfortunately, the OED CD-ROM is only available in PC format; not in Macintosh format. I have written to OED and they maintain that the market niche of Macintosh is still too small to justify a release in this format. Really upsets me because the Mac is far more use-friendly and rarely, if ever, has any viruses. But not everyone feels the same way.

From Garbl’s Editorial Style Manual:

convince, persuade Often confused. Convince involves thought, trying to affect a person’s point of view. Persuade involves action, trying to get a person to do something. Convince usually goes with of or that: He convinced his boss of his value to the company. She convinced her colleague that she was right. Persuade usually goes with to: The students persuaded their teacher to extend the deadline.

This makes the most sense to me.  I am persuaded to use ‘persuade’ when action is involved.  I am convinced that ‘convince’ should be used when referring to what I believe to be true.

However, if we’re really talking about history here…

According to Paul Brian’s Common Errors in English, in his list of ‘Non-Errors’:

Persuade vs. convince

Some people like to distinguish between these two words by insisting that you persuade people until you have convinced them; but "persuade" as a synonym for "convince" goes back at least to the 16th century. It can mean both to attempt to convince and to succeed. It is no longer common to say things like "I am persuaded that you are an illiterate fool," but even this usage is not in itself wrong.

-Tim

Here is C. S. Lewis in his book "The Weight of Glory," using both "convince" and "persuade" in the same sentence:

"When they want to CONVINCE you that earth is your home, notice how they set about it. They begin by trying to PERSUADE you that earth can be made into heaven, thus giving a sop to your sense of exile in earth as it is."

Here is a careful distinction made by the great Christian apologist. I agree that "convince" and "persuade" can shade into each other. But, historically, there is a big difference! And I’m not talking just about back to the 16th century either. Long before that time, classical writers made such subtle distinctions. I think we are too easily persuaded to lose some of these finer distinctions.

-John

[quote author=chaucer link=board=wordsuggest;num=1090676083;start=0#8 date=07/28/04 at 20:43:32]Here is C. S. Lewis in his book "The Weight of Glory," using both "convince" and "persuade" in the same sentence:

"When they want to CONVINCE you that earth is your home, notice how they set about it. They begin by trying to PERSUADE you that earth can be made into heaven, thus giving a sop to your sense of exile in earth as it is."

I’m convinced that the above example was not the best choice to persuade the casual reader to accept your claims.

Lewis, above, seems to be using them interchangeably… except that, here, persuasion can be said to lead to conviction.   I don’t consider that such a careful distinction.  In base form, they are of the same fabric.

[quote author=chaucer link=board=wordsuggest;num=1090676083;start=0#8 date=07/28/04 at 20:43:32]But, historically, there is a big difference! And I’m not talking just about back to the 16th century either. Long before that time, classical writers made such subtle distinctions. I think we are too easily persuaded to lose some of these finer distinctions.

I disagree.  We are not easily "persuaded".  The distinctions, plain and simply, are not there, in accepted common usage, although I welcome any proof of "finer distinction" in English usage prior to the 16th Century.

Certainly, I wouldn’t argue that in Latin the distinction was clear.  I’m no Latin scholar.  (Henri...?)  But we’re not talking about Latin, are we?

And, for the record, John, I do not disagree that a finer distinction is helpful and desirable for those who carry a concern for correct English usage, for the sake of clearer communication.  I simply disagree that there is an accepted and formal distinction in common use, and I disagree that the distinction was historically manifested.  I see no proof.  I remain unconvinced.

-Tim

I will bring more proof to bear. "To convince" and "to persuade" come from different roots and have developed distinguishing differences as my OED citations have tried to show. Perhaps I need to develop my case more convincingly. Okay. I’m up to the task. I have a solid background in Greek and Latin, which is where I learned that there is such a distinction, especially in the Greek and Latin translations of the Bible. But more on this at another posting.

As far as common usage, I agree that the distinction is not made in everyday speech, but that’s why I’m discussing the issue. Granted, I need to make a more convincing argument. I’ll try.