Something I’ve noticed, and am quite curious about, is that certain words seem to have different pronunciations depending on regional influence. "Salmon" is one of them. I’ve always heard the word pronounced such that the ‘l’ is barely heard, if at all. Yet, I have two good friends who always stress the ‘l’ very clearly. That would seem to be more proper, but in most (but not all) of the places I’ve visited, the first version seems to be preferred.
I’ve heard similar differences in proper name pronunciations. I have a friend named "Sandra" who pronounces the ‘a’ as in the word "hand." We have friends originally from the Albany, NY area who will only say her name as if the first syllable rhymes with "frond." I would think that less unusual if her name were spelled "Saundra."
Local place names are also subject to local interpretation as well, since the Louisville that is within 20 miles of my house is called "Louis-ville" as opposed to "Lewey-ville" (of Kentucky fame).
[quote author=Tim Ward link=board=omni;num=1067428638;start=0#1 date=10/29/03 at 10:31:40]there is a town in Virginia spelled ‘Staunton’, but pronounced ‘stanton’
There is also a town in Ohio written as Chauncey but pronounced "chancy".
The pronunciation of "aun" as "an" is an old feature of English anyway (look at "aunt")—still retained consistently in some parts of Ireland (e.g. "landry" for "laundry").
Placenames are always a bit of a minefield, in any case (the good people of Chauncey soon put me right!).
I believe there are different pronunciations of the several Newarks in the USA, varying state by state.
Coemgenus
I wonder if this word has the same story as debt which, according to my English teacher in high school, always has been pronounced as [det] and, until it was discovered that the word came from Latin, was also written "det" and the "b" was inserted. Salmon (the word) comes from France and O.Fr. salumoun from L. salire (jump) possibly and is today at least pronounced and written saumone.
Remember also that "l" in front of "m" sometimes is swallowed - calm, balmy e.g.
I’ve always liked names like Gloucester, Leicester etc. which are pronounced Gloster, Lester etc. In Holland there’s a place called Gorinchem, which is not pronounced ‘Go-ring-khem’ as one would expect, but rather ‘Gor-kum’. I’ve heard some examples that are a lot weirder, but I can’t come up with any right now.
[quote author=Sitran link=board=omni;num=1067428638;start=0#4 date=10/29/03 at 19:04:44]
Yes, my dad is from there, and insists that it is pronounced "luvL".
Yes, we also have a nearby city known locally as Murvl, but appears on the map as "Maryville". I think it’s an attempt (with limited success) to get it down to a syllable and a half .
Sitran, to reference the Luvul pronunciation, it is odd that folks who generally speak so slowly need to reduce their words to the lowest common denominator, so to speak, or maybe that’s the way to make up time
Jack:
a nearby city known locally as Murvl, but appears on the map as "Maryville".
Interesting! Now remember that this isn’t the deep south. This is really hick country, known more for hypo-articulation than multi-diphthongization.
But everywhere it seems that local place names are more highly encoded by the natives than other words.
[quote author=Spiff link=board=omni;num=1067428638;start=0#7 date=10/30/03 at 05:22:19]I’ve always liked names like Gloucester, Leicester etc. which are pronounced Gloster, Lester etc.
And of course, Bicester (Bister) and the exception (there is always one!) Cirencester (Siren-sester).
East Anglia has a host of pronunciation traps for the "furriner". Here are a few:
[quote author=DerekB link=board=omni;num=1067428638;start=0#13 date=10/31/03 at 13:17:29]the exception (there is always one!) Cirencester (Siren-sester).
Cirencester hasn’t always been an exception. In fact, it’s a remarkable example of a "spelling-pronunciation" asserting itself over a very short period of time linguistically speaking.
Up until a generation or so ago the pronunciation "Sissester" could still be heard (itself a move away from the even older "Sissetter"), but for reasons I am unsure of (has the town received a particularly large number of "incomers" in recent decades?) the "say-it-the-way-it-looks" pronunciation "Siren-sester" now holds full sway and you can talk to people who live there and yet have never even heard of the old pronunciations.
Another one to add to the -cesters is Towcester. This one is pronounced "Toaster", but I’ve just had a look at my book of reproductions of Ogilby’s 1675 road maps of England and Wales (which is interesting in this respect because he often adds the local pronunciation—useful when asking the way) and Ogilby writes "Towcester" (the modern spelling) on the maps, "Toceter" (the modern pronunciation) in the index—yet also adds another local pronunciation, namely: "vulgo Tosseter" (now AFAIK as extinct as "Sissetter).
Middle English douten, from Old French douter, from Latin dubitare, to waver; see dwo- in Indo-European roots.
It seems ‘doubt’ has undergone the same process as ‘debt’. Is this reformation in spelling to reflect etymologies the same reformation which has caused the American ‘-ize’?
[quote author=Coemgenus link=board=omni;num=1067428638;start=0#14 date=10/31/03 at 19:19:00]Cirencester hasn’t always been an exception. ... Up until a generation or so ago the pronunciation "Sissester" could still be heard ...
Thanks Coemgenus, I thought this was the case although I wasn’t sure enough to mention it. Interesting that the effect is enshrined in the spelling. The town names where the Latin-derived "castle" ending is fully pronounced all include an extra "h" as in Winchester and Manchester.
[quote author=Palaeosophist link=board=omni;num=1067428638;start=15#15 date=11/01/03 at 13:34:14]It seems ‘doubt’ has undergone the same process as ‘debt’.
Indubitably! :D
Is this reformation in spelling to reflect etymologies the same reformation which has caused the American ‘-ize’?
I don’t think so. The b in debt (see comment from Iterman) relates to Latin origins. As far as I recall, the Lats ( ) didn’t have a Z.
However, my original question was whether or not the process of changing spellings to reflect etymologies (as seen in debt and doubt) was the same process which changed ‘-ise’ to ‘-ize’. Are these developments in fact both derived from this Movement in Spelling?
.
) didn’t have a Z.