Help! Is this a fair analogy? It’s in an opinion piece about Mel Gibson’s ‘The Passion.’
"People didn’t fear an anti-German backlash after the release of Schindler’s List; neither should they expect modern Jews to face discrimination for the centuries-old actions of a minority of Jewish clerics."
My personal feeling is that the two sides of the statement are not congruent. I think the distinction between "Nazi" and "German" is greater and clearer than the distinction between "modern Jew" and "Jewish cleric."
If you were advising the community college student who submitted it to the school paper, what would you say? My inclination is to suggest he consider whether there’s another term for "Jewish clerics" that more fairly balances the two sides of the analogy. Is this reasonable or have I come down with a case of the politically correct blues?
I can see his point, actually. There has been a clear effort to be politically correct with regards to the release of this movie, at least from my viewpoint. Several TV stations interviewed movie-goers and asked for their impressions. Many of the interviewers were focusing on the subject of whether the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus of Nazareth. I saw absolutely no one with a response that confirmed any suspicions or fears about that.
My personal overall impression has been that the movie tries to tell us that we are all responsible for the death of Jesus. In fact, Mel Gibson makes no appearances in this film, except the scene where Jesus is being nailed to the cross—those are Mel’s hands. He wanted to do that because of his philosophical and religious beliefs.
No, to me the greater flaw in the student’s logic is comparing the death of one man to the deaths of millions.
What subject/class has assigned the paper? Were there any specific objectives? Those are the issues I would be concerned with, rather than this particular analogy the student has drawn.
[quote author=Penny link=board=omni;num=1077919865;start=0#0 date=02/27/04 at 17:11:04]My personal feeling is that the two sides of the statement are not congruent. I think the distinction between "Nazi" and "German" is greater and clearer than the distinction between "modern Jew" and "Jewish cleric."
I think that the student is making a fair analogy. Analogies are meant to clarify a point and not to have a one to one correspondence in every aspect of the two things being compared.
A small group of men working for their own agenda, does not implicate, necessarily, the larger group that these men are from.
If in the making of this movie, the Gospel(s) are being followed as an accurate account of historical events, it is clear that it was not the whole of the Jewish nation that was responsible, but just a handful of the priesthood.
I think it is a fair analogy. For example, the Ba’ath Party by supporting their leader and his acts does not implicate the whole of the Iraqi people.
Penny:
Is this reasonable or have I come down with a case of the politically correct blues?
One never thinks of direct punishment of the child for sins of the father.
The whole blame/fault mentality is destined for obsolescence, it is not part of a mature attitude.
What a wonderful thought, Katy!
Jesus, Himself, called from the cross for the forgiveness of the small group that had done this to Him.
"Forgive them for they know not what they do!"
Just a note: I will never see this movie. I have a very weak stomach and a vivid imagination. I will miss hearing the Aramaic and Latin, but it would be too much for me to see. The written word is powerful enough in my mind. I have nothing against this movie, and do not consider it in any way anti-semitic; in fact, all the good characters in the movie are Jewish.
I think a better case could be made for it being anti-Roman.
Help! Is this a fair analogy? It’s in an opinion piece about Mel Gibson’s ‘The Passion.’
"People didn’t fear an anti-German backlash after the release of Schindler’s List; neither should they expect modern Jews to face discrimination for the centuries-old actions of a minority of Jewish clerics."
My personal feeling is that the two sides of the statement are not congruent. I think the distinction between "Nazi" and "German" is greater and clearer than the distinction between "modern Jew" and "Jewish cleric."
I think you are the victim of political correctness, Penny; I don’t think that Nazis should have been brought into the comparison at all.
Did the movies Tora, Tora, Tora! or Pearl Harbor cause a backlash against Japanese-Americans? Did Playing for Time or The Pianist cause a backlash against Germans? It wasn’t just Nazis we fought in WWII, it was Germans, Italians, and Japanese. While many Germans claimed they didn’t know what went on in the concentration camps, couldn’t they guess what was going on when all these people were rounded up and moved away? I think there is some culpability for most of the German Nation of the 1930s, since they are the ones who allowed a madman to come to power, albeit with more than a little help from the victors of WWI.
The racists and bigots are out there and they don’t need this movie to push them over the edge—they’re already way over it. Some sphincter muscle recently dropped off a flyer by my mailbox encouraging me to "Love Your Race." The picture on the flyer showed an obviously Aryan blonde woman that looked like she came straight out of some 1930s Nazi propaganda poster. I’m sorry, but we Irish also have dark-haired women in our race. The problem with freedom of speech in the US is that even these people are guaranteed the freedom they would take away from others.
Getting back to the movie, I haven’t seen it yet but I will. I’ll take Gibson at his word that it is not anti-semitic and make my own decision after I see it. Some of the detractors criticized the movie without even seeing it, and some admitted it wasn’t anti-semitic per se, but were afraid that it would be seen that way in countries historically more anti-semitic than the US.
As to the culpability of the Jews, ask yourself this: if you were able to go back in a time machine and prevent the Crucifixion, would you? Could you? If you believe that Christ had to die to pay for our sins, then whoever participated in His death also participated in our salvation. That’s why I have mixed feelings about Judas; Salvation would not be possible if he had not betrayed Christ, if the Sanhedrin had not condemned Him, if Pilate had not crucified Him. Salvation, like the world, is more complex than it might seem on the surface.
Finally, tonight I saw a clip from the movie that was made after principle filming was completed, in which Jesus tells the assembled crowd that they need to love not only those who love them, but also their enemies. Where is the anti-semitism in this? This is the second of the two great commandments in the New Testament ("Love God . . . love your neighbor . . ."). I find it easier to keep track of two than ten; all the others fall out of these two.
on Feb 27th, 2004, 5:11pm, Penny wrote:
My personal feeling is that the two sides of the statement are not congruent. I think the distinction between "Nazi" and "German" is greater and clearer than the distinction between "modern Jew" and "Jewish cleric."
[quote author=Tim Ward link=board=omni;num=1077919865;start=0#2 date=02/27/04 at 17:46:37]
Can you further explain this statement?
-Tim
I have to admit that I’m having a bit of difficulty articulating exactly what bothers me about the analogy, but it definitely has to do with choice of words. I’m not taking issue with the opinion; my concern is whether the writing accurately reflects that opinion.
While being German doesn’t necessarily mean one ascribes to Nazi philosophy, doesn’t being a Jew imply that one ascribes to Jewish clerical philosophy?
IF the answer is yes, and IF that’s not what the writer intended, then he needs to fine-tune it.
IF, on the other hand, I’m being obsessive . . . well, then I’ll just shut my mouth, get this paper put to bed and find something else to obsess about. ;)
While being German doesn’t necessarily mean one ascribes to Nazi philosophy, doesn’t being a Jew imply that one ascribes to Jewish clerical philosophy?
Not a good question!
Sorry!
Do all the abused children of Catholic "Schools" have the right to condemn and denouce all good nuns and priests who have served with both humility and godliness?
No, the problem with any, and I mean any, human organization is that eventually some of its people will go wrong. The bigger or smaller, the better chance!
My point is that we should be offended by compliance, subterfuge, and ignorance, not by the honest and confessing beliefs of the uninformed!
I think one of the problems is that the "Nazi" thing is so overused that it has lost its polarity.
That is a shame! It is the realization of a horrible archetype!
[quote author=KatyBr link=board=omni;num=1077919865;start=0#3 date=02/27/04 at 18:09:58]
My personal opinion is that the guilt dies with the perpetrator.
Katy
I agree, Katy. I want to be sure the article accurately expresses the opinion of the student who wrote it since it’s likely to generate reader mail, and he needs to be able to stand behind his words.
[quote author=Sitran link=board=omni;num=1077919865;start=0#4 date=02/27/04 at 18:19:13]A small group of men working for their own agenda, does not implicate, necessarily, the larger group that these men are from.
You’re absolutely right, Sitran. In fact, had the writer chosen the words "a small group of men working for their own agenda" instead of "Jewish clerics," I wouldn’t have questioned the comparison.
Thanks for the reply. I came to the right place for help.
Penny
edited to add: In fact, had he written "a small group of Jewish clerics working for their own agenda," I wouldn’t have questioned the comparison.
[quote author=Stargzer link=board=omni;num=1077919865;start=0#9 date=02/27/04 at 23:21:46]
While many Germans claimed they didn’t know what went on in the concentration camps, couldn’t they guess what was going on when all these people were rounded up and moved away? I think there is some culpability for most of the German Nation of the 1930s, since they are the ones who allowed a madman to come to power, albeit with more than a little help from the victors of WWI.
The reason for my original post was the clarity of the student’s writing rather than the opinion he expressed.
Coincidentally, however, my husband brought home an interesting video last night, "Hitler’s Secretary." It’s a documentary and the secretary, who was in the bunker right up until the end, talks about her experiences and raises the same questions you do. It’s obvious she spent half a century struggling with her own culpability. Definitely worth watching.
One fear of this movie is, since Passion plays have been known to be rabidly anti-semitic for hundreds, if not thousands of years (I don’t know when they started), this Passion play of sorts would have the same effect. I haven’t seen it and can’t make that judgement yet, whether it does or does not.
Katy, thanks for the welcome. No, I don’t plan on vanishing. I’ve peeked in here occasionally and will try to be more conscientious about it in the future. It’s certainly never dull!
[quote author=Robearsn link=board=omni;num=1077919865;start=15#17 date=02/28/04 at 14:39:49]One fear of this movie is, since Passion plays have been known to be rabidly anti-semitic for hundreds, if not thousands of years (I don’t know when they started), this Passion play of sorts would have the same effect. I haven’t seen it and can’t make that judgement yet, whether it does or does not.
- Robby
After my septic tank was pumped today, the guy who pumped it out called one of his co-workers on one of those walkie-talkie cell phones to check on something. Durinig their conversation the co-worker said he saw the movie the night before. The guy asked his co-worker how he liked it. He said it was good. Then he came back and said, "You may not believe when you go in, but when you come out you won’t forget." This sounds like the effect that Gibson was aiming for.
I don’t know if this is a "Passion Play" per se or just a filming of the Gospel account of Passion, which is read every year on Good Friday and at the Easter Vigil. Do people complain that the Roman Catholic liturgy is anti-semitic?
However, since it was the Romans that carried out the torture and execution, perhaps the Italians should have more to fear than the Jews.
[quote author=Penny link=board=omni;num=1077919865;start=15#15 date=02/28/04 at 10:40:15]
The reason for my original post was the clarity of the student’s writing rather than the opinion he expressed.
Coincidentally, however, my husband brought home an interesting video last night, "Hitler’s Secretary." It’s a documentary and the secretary, who was in the bunker right up until the end, talks about her experiences and raises the same questions you do. It’s obvious she spent half a century struggling with her own culpability. Definitely worth watching.
Thanks for the reply,
Penny
Penny,
I read the original quote again and still think it’s clear as is, although it may have been a majority of the Jewish clerics but a minority of the Jews. And no, I can’t think of a better term for "Jewish Clerics" at the moment, unless you use the biblical term Sanhedrin (click for the definition from yDc’s AHD).
If that quote alone generates a surfeit of vehement, vituperative missives, then you have an excess of hyper-sensitive people in your community, in my most humble opinion.
Thanks for the movie review; I’ll keep an eye out for it. Is it available for rental or for sale only?
I’ll echo the welcoming sentiments of others. We can be argumentative here at times, but it’s always an interesting time! :D
