In one of these threads, someone—I think it was Tim—said that "The proof is in the pudding" began as "The proof of the pudding is in the mix."

Can anyone help clarify the meaning and origin of these expressions?

[quote author=tamisaac link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#0 date=12/10/02 at 14:56:02]"The proof of the pudding is in the mix."

New one on me. The proof of the pudding is in the eating is what people say over here. From the older meaning of proof meaning "test", which is with us still in missile proving ground, proof alcohol and the otherwise nonsensical expression the exception that proves the rule.
So: you don’t know how well you’ve made your pudding until you’ve tested it by eating it - in general, you don’t know how well a job has been done until you try out the result.
I don’t understand at all what "in the mix" would mean - is it used in a different context from the one I’ve described?

Grant

PS: 5700 hits on Google for the "in the eating" expression, and none for "in the mix"!
Odd.

[quote author=granthutchison link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#1 date=12/10/02 at 15:23:41]
New one on me. The proof of the pudding is in the eating is what people say over here. From the older meaning of proof meaning "test", which is with us still in missile proving ground, proof alcohol and the otherwise nonsensical expression the exception that proves the rule.

And proofing yeast.  (Though new strains of yeast have rendered this practice generally unnecessary.)

Two questions:
Whence came "proof of pudding" as an expression?

And,
What does proof mean regarding alcohol?  (I know it’s double the percentage, but why proof?)

I’m having this funny experience now—ever say a word many times and it starts to sound like nonsense?  Proof, proof, proof, proof, proof—looks so silly!  Souns like a spoof!  :D

[quote author=tamisaac link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#3 date=12/10/02 at 15:54:45]Two questions:
Whence came "proof of pudding" as an expression?

Dunno. But I think pleasing alliteration and rhythm has a lot to do with the survival of such phrases.

[quote author=tamisaac link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#3 date=12/10/02 at 15:54:45]What does proof mean regarding alcohol?  (I know it’s double the percentage, but why proof?)

Proof was originally a test that marked a threshold in alcohol concentration: mix the liquor with gunpowder and see if the resulting mess will burn. 50% alcohol in water is the lowest concentration that still allows the gunpowder to ignite. So alcoholic drinks that doused the gunpowder were spoken of as "under proof" and those that supported combustion were "over proof".

Grant

Is this expression in any way linked to the nursery rhyme Little Jack Horner?

From memory, some title deeds were in his dessert; definitely a case where the proof (of ownership) was in the pudding.  Whether it was his just desserts or not is another story (or idiom).

[quote author=Linnet link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#5 date=12/10/02 at 19:25:51]Whether it was his just desserts or not is another story (or idiom).

But nothing to do with pudding, that one.
It’s just deserts, "deserts" being the things we deserve.

Grant

All this talk is making me hungry!  :P

I wish I could remember my source re: the "in the mix" comment… Honestly, I can’t, and I realized I should have my ducks in a row before I mentioned it the first time!

When I read the title of this thread, it reminded me of this short story by O. Henry: Proof of the Pudding.  A great little short story!

Also interesting is that pudding was originally a kind of sausage!

I think the identifying characteristic of a pudding was originally that it was a mixture of sorts - saugage would qualify as a mixture of meats.

[quote author=tcward link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#8 date=12/11/02 at 12:00:25]Also interesting is that pudding was originally a kind of sausage!

Still is, in Scotland - black pudding, made with blood; and white pudding made with ... um ... looks like oatmeal and lard, to honest.

Grant

My brother spent a good part of last summer in a bed-and-breakfast in Ireland, and for the most part was fairly pleased with it. He mentioned avoiding a certain portion of the breakfast though…  :)

[quote author=granthutchison link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#4 date=12/10/02 at 17:41:33]

Proof was originally a test that marked a threshold in alcohol concentration: mix the liquor with gunpowder and see if the resulting mess will burn. 50% alcohol in water is the lowest concentration that still allows the gunpowder to ignite. So alcoholic drinks that doused the gunpowder were spoken of as "under proof" and those that supported combustion were "over proof".

Grant,
My husband wants to know how you know these things—where do you get your information?

[quote author=granthutchison link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#6 date=12/10/02 at 20:00:24]
It’s just deserts, "deserts" being the things we deserve.

REALLY?!  :o Is that how people spell it, too?  (I don’t now recall seeing it in print).

I don’t know about you, but I deserve desserts.

[quote author=tamisaac link=board=idiom;num=1039550162;start=0#13 date=12/12/02 at 22:54:07]
REALLY?!  :o Is that how people spell it, too?  (I don’t now recall seeing it in print).

Yes, it is spelt deserts.