Is the use of the idiomatic term "forked tongue", usually used as "speaking with a forked tongue" by itself offensive to Native Americans? The idiomatic phrase is also often used to refer to white people or government officials in particular; is such usage offensive to Native Americans?
Similarly, is idiomatic use of the phrase "pow wow" to mean a business conference or gathering (without reference to an actual First Nations Pow Wow), offensive to Native Peoples?
I find both phrases being used quite often in idiomatic English, without any suggestion that the mere usage is racist or offensive. However, that allegation has been made in our office by someone, and I’m interested to know if others feel the same way or if this person’s high level of sensitivity is outside the mainstream of thought.
"Forked tongue" is a phrase that is very patronizing and rude to say to a Native American
I certainly is. I spent a good part of 1965 living on an isolated Apache reservation in Arizona. That was long before cigarette and casino income improved the lot of the Indian/Native American/First Nations, or whatever the right PC term is now. From the white side (or whatever the correct racial term might be), treatment of the Indians (read Apache) was disgusting. I wouldn’t even want to begin to describe it in this forum.
Forked tongues and pow-wows belong in John Wayne movies. They have nothing to do with (whatever they’re called).
I appreciate your comments and feedback. However, I may not have been clear in my posting. The phrase was not used TO an Native American person, nor ABOUT a Native American person in any way but was used to mean a white person being dishonest.
The term is defined in the dictionary as meaning duplicitous but without any reference to it being offensive. It has been used in the title of many published articles and even a book published by the Ethnic Press, again with no direct reference to Native Americans at all but to mean officials who are duplicitous. Even the Observer currently has an article asserting that Colin Powell is speaking with a forked tongue. I’ve seen no complaints or comments in complaint about any of this usage, which is what makes me curious.
If the phrase is not being used to refer to Native Americans, or being spoken to Native Americans, I don’t understand what is offensive about it? I understand why sports team names or mascots that make reference to Indians is partronizing or downright offensive, as is any derogatory term or which refers to a Native person. However, the implication of this term is that it is the white man who is not to be trusted, and I cannot see any express or implied way in which Native Americans are demeaned by the use of this term.
Does this factual clarification make any difference, in your view? And, just so I can try to understand and be more sensitive, are you a Native person yourself? Thanks again for responding.
I think it’s all in the intention. If you say "white man speak with fork-ed tongue" as if you’re imitating Tonto in the early Lone Ranger TV programs, then you’re probably going to p i s s some Native Americans off. And me. If I said, in my plumby limey accent "Colin Powell is speaking with a forked tongue", then I doubt the Native American public would be up in arms. At least about the forked tongue idiom. Point is, Indians (Native Americans) have been shat on for so long that they’re a little quirky when it comes to white folks making fun of them. I, for one, don’t have a problem with that. Again, it’s not about the words themselves, but the intent.
IMHO, since KatyBr has stated so well the actual feeling of many members of aboriginal tribes of the northern and western hemisphere, perhaps it would be wise to avoid this phrase altogether and allow it to wither away and die.
As to what to call them, if their tribe can be determined politely, I believe that is preferred by all and sundry. For some, Indian is fine, for others it is hateful. For immigrants from the Indian subcontinent, it is generally nettling to have someone else called Indian. Most seem to have a sense of humor about it, still…
I like what Canada uses, First Nations people. It’s a nice acknowedgement of their presence before European incursions.
[quote author=KatyBr link=board=idiom;num=1048360478;start=0#6 date=03/24/03 at 00:02:57]Alas, PW, it has become About the words…PC has taken on a life of it’s own.
Katy
The US Government Was founded on the premise that it was of the people, by the people and for the people. Now it’s of the person, by the minority, for the special interest group (the smaller the better), sigh.
For dam* sure.
Jancop said:
Even the Observer currently has an article asserting that Colin Powell is speaking with a forked tongue.
I remember a comment earlier in the thread about the use of ‘forked tongue’ being offensive when said TO a Native American (was that you, Katy?) in that it’s not only general offense but a slur as well.
I can certainly get behind that, esp. when combined with a patronizing tone of voice. ANd I agree that like so many other words (bad and good), tone and context has as much to do with meaning as anything.
So now what I’m wondering is this: what about calling someone a snake? Is that idiomatic property of Native Americans? I’m not suggesting anyone made a case for "forked tongue" by itself to be a Native American phrase; I guess I’m trying to ask if it is.
I sense that calling someone a snake (even a Native American) would not as easily be heard as an ethnic/racial/cultural/whatever the pc term is slur.
And I would think that ‘forked tongue" is just a reference to being a snake.
I feel like I’m beating a dead horse. Just looking for help in figuring this out, I guess.
[quote author=KatyBr link=board=idiom;num=1048360478;start=0#12 date=03/25/03 at 12:45:29]Many of the first intruders (used only as a descriptive term) to the farthest reaches of the West before Other Europeans followed, were French traders and fur trappers.
Just look at all the French place-names that survive in the U.S: Des Moines, Iowa; Detroit, Michigan; Coeur d’Alene, Idaho; Fond du Lac, Wisconsin . . .
[quote author=Sitran link=board=idiom;num=1048360478;start=15#16 date=03/25/03 at 20:28:32]
When in doubt, leave it out.
Hear, hear. Rosewoman said as much, too. I wish everyone could be so respectful and sensitive.
Believe it or not, I have actually had a hard time convincing some acquaintances of mine (who considered themselves as PC) to stop using the term "white trash."
For all the frustration it can give to simple communication, PC-ness has a good side: over the years it has certainly made ME more aware of stereotypes and discriminatory connotations. I believe that to be an important step for everyone to take on the path toward true equality and freedom.
Before I became a musician I was a horse trainer. In all my research about how works the mind of the horse, I never came across anything that stuck with me more than this fact:
In equine societies aka herds, dark-colored horses tend to dominate over other colors.
I don’t bring this up as a parallel to the human skin-color issues. I don’t know why dark horses are dominant. Maybe because dark things appear bigger and/or closer to the eye (this is something I have found to be true in visual art). Maybe not.
By no means am I suggesting an excuse for mistreatment. It seems to me we as humans could find a way ...
Answering the question of "why" seems impossible. I agree with you, Katy; I wish it wasn’t so. I am totally convinced, though, that it should be better than it is and that Aldous Huxley’s "brave new world" is not the answer.
[quote author=Agoraphile link=board=idiom;num=1048360478;start=0#14 date=03/25/03 at 16:37:07]
Just look at all the French place-names that survive in the U.S: Des Moines, Iowa; Detroit, Michigan; Coeur d’Alene, Idaho; Fond du Lac, Wisconsin . . .
The Grand Tetons…
BTW, I heard it was the English that scalped folks first, offering hard cash for native scalps depending on whether it was child, adult female or adult male.
