Hullo all.
Long time lurker, first time poster here.  ;D
I was wondering if anyone could clarify the meaning of the rather curious (and insulting) idiom ‘to Welsh/Welch on a bet’.
None of my fellow Weshie’s can explain the origin of this peculiar turn of phrase, but it certainly seems to indicate a definite lack of honour regarding the ancestors of my fellow countrymen.
I first encountered the term whilst watching Australian soap operas (a vice of which I have since absolved myself), and was pondering on whether the saying originated on that fair Antipodean isle, or whether it was recognisable as a derogatory phrase on more than one continent.
Anyway, I would be grateful for any help on the matter.
Cheers.

Hello Delaine!
yDic:

welsh
(wlsh, wlch) also welch
intr.v. Informal welshed, also welched welsh·ing, welch·ing welsh·es, welch·es
To swindle a person by not paying a debt or wager.
To fail to fulfill an obligation.

————————————————————————————————————
Origin unknown.
————————————————————————————————————————
welsher n.

"Origin unknown" doesn’t help much.  I don’t know where the saying comes from either, but I have heard it in Canada.

monrad

It’s stretched as far as Canada, eh?
Incidentally, the majority of my hot-heeled ancestors high-tailed it to Australia and Canada.
I wonder is there’s any correlation….hmmm.  ???

I have often wondered about this word ‘welch’.  Is it related to Welsh.  Is there some history or cultural phenomenon that relates to Wales.  Perhaps the breaking of a treaty or truce.  It seems very close to the idea of Indian giver (now very passé).

Sitran

The term ‘Welch’ relates to the regimient of fusiliers of the Welsh regiment during the Crimean war (I believe).
I’m unsure as to why the spelling was changed, but there we are!
It seems as though our soldiers as that time were a bit on the dodgy side when it came to honouring debts.  :-[

[quote author=Delaine link=board=idiom;num=1059164233;start=0#4 date=07/25/03 at 17:30:02]The term ‘Welch’ relates to the regimient of fusiliers of the Welsh regiment during the Crimean war (I believe).

The regiment is much older than that. Read about it here:
http://www.army.mod.uk/rwf/history.htm. As for welching on a deal, I can’t find any connection, although English people held Welsh people in somewhat low regard (and, of course, vice versa) for quite a part of our common history.

- PW

Thanks for the link, PW.
It is difficult  to discern exactly where the sentiment regarding the dubious honour of my nation originated, but you are right in the statement that my brethren are not held in high esteem by our English neighbours.
Perhaps it was out tendency to ‘rat-out’ on a bet that earned us the dubious honour of monetary flightiness, or maybe it was merely a result of saesneg propaganda against our small, hilly, sheep-laden isle.
Either way, I’m sure we can let bygones be bygones - providing there’s no money involoved, of course.  ;D

I’m sure we can let bygones be bygones - providing there’s no money involved, of
     course.  

Very funny, Delaine!

Sitran

Well Sitran, I’ve a reputation to live up to, after all.  ;)

My 1981 hard-copy Brewer’s says:

———-
Welsh, welsher. To welsh is to decamp from a racecourse without settling one’s debts; to avoid settling a debt. A welsher is one who does this. The origin of the term is uncertain.
———-

:( Gosh.
The term invariably means to deceive, or cheat somehow (whether at truces, bargains, or bets) and, and is always attributed to ‘Welsh’-ness.
I just wish I knew what my nation did to deserve so harsh a reputation.
I suppose we may never know….

I just wish I knew what my nation did to deserve so harsh a reputation

Got conquered by the bloody English, I guess.  ;)

- PW

I think PW hit the nail on the head, there.  Unfortunately, a people doesn’t necessarily have to fit the description that its conquerors force upon them.

-Tim

To further compound your astute observations, an extract from my recent discovery of the ‘classic’ ditty, the ‘Song of Patriotic [English] Prejudice’, by the terminally jolly Flanders and Swann.
Ahem….

‘The Welshman’s dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!’  :o

I suppose this proves the well observed points in your kind responses, admittedly in a rather amusing fashion.
Still, the Scots, Irish, Germans, Dutch, Spanish, and virtually every other nation, sans England, get a pretty thorough pasting too, so I guess I’m in good company.  ;D

And now there’s this Welchia worm rampaging through cyberspace and besmirching your name further!

Ed
- Who has always been told, "You can never beat a Welsh rugby team, only score more points than they do…" :~)

[quote author=Tim Ward link=board=idiom;num=1059164233;start=0#12 date=07/28/03 at 10:59:24] ... Unfortunately, a people doesn’t necessarily have to fit the description that its conquerors force upon them.

Tim, shouldn’t that rather be «Fortunately [emphasis added, MHD], a people ... »

Henri