Please keep in mind that some of the items featured in this topic like Happy Camper, To Boot, Hell Bent just to name a few are not idioms but actually expressions.
An expression is not the same thing as an idiom.
A speech form or an expression of a given language that is peculiar to itself grammatically or cannot be understood from the individual meanings of its elements, as in keep tabs on.
The specific grammatical, syntactic, and structural character of a given language.
Regional speech or dialect.
a. A specialized vocabulary used by a group of people; jargon: legal idiom. b. A style or manner of expression peculiar to a given people: "Also important is the uneasiness I’ve always felt at cutting myself off from my idiom, the American habits of speech and jest and reaction, all of them entirely different from the local variety" (S.J. Perelman).
A style of artistic expression characteristic of a particular individual, school, period, or medium: the idiom of the French impressionists; the punk rock idiom.
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[Late Latin idima, idimat-, from Greek, from idiousthai, to make one’s own, from idios, own, personal, private; see s(w)e- in Indo-European roots.]
Based on the first definition, I am hard pressed to see how your examples wouldn’t be idioms. They surely cannot be understood from the individual meanings of their elements. An expression seems to be more of a phrase.
Hey, Brian, I don’t know what we’d do without you. Thanks for the correction. What say we suggest that ydc create a new category for expressions then, unless you think Omnibus is sufficient to cover the category.
[quote author=Tim Ward link=board=idiom;num=1084308072;start=0#4 date=05/11/04 at 22:36:18]Here’s a quiz on English idioms. Maybe the exercise will do some good.
I felt that I had had enough by about number 45. However, it was sufficient to reinforce my a-s-s-ertion above that Brian’s examples are idoioms rather than expressions. BTY, there was one exercise question with no correct answer.
His new car is (very impressive).
(a) named after someone (b) nothing to sneeze at (c) nobody`s fool (d) no picnic
The website said that "nothing to sneeze at" was the the correct answer, even though this idiom means "unimpressive".
Perry
the filter forced me to write my a-s-s-ertion so that it would stop doing my assertion
Both Perry and Katy are correct. The sneezing is caused by that "new car" scent used liberally by car dealers in both impressive and unimpressive vehicles. Of course, nothing to sneeze at may imply that it was purchased from a private citizen?
gailr
Brian’s instruction in re idioms set me to thinking.
Is it that all idioms are expressions but not all expressions are idioms? Kinda like all donkeys are jackasses but not all jackasses are donkeys?
I may have to back down from my earlier position. "Nothing to sneeze at" shows up in a Google search as something "not to be ignored", which at the least is a left-handed compliment for "impressive".
In any event the opportunity for self-improvement is nothing to sneeze at.
[quote author=brian_costello link=board=idiom;num=1084308072;start=0#0 date=05/11/04 at 16:41:12]
Please keep in mind that some of the items featured in this topic like Happy Camper, To Boot, Hell Bent just to name a few are not idioms but actually expressions.
An expression is not the same thing as an idiom.
—- Brian Costello
Let me add some of my weight to this discussion—Lord knows I have plenty to spare! ::)
If we travel in our time machine back to October 7, 2002, we’ll find the original post to this section, which in turn has a link to the October 2, 2002, post that started this idio[s]t[/s]matic idea. As can be seen, even though the forum was eventually named Idioms for brevity, it originally was intended to include Idioms, Euphemisms, Slang, and other related or similar forms and expressions.
So, let’s not get so idiotic about idioms. We have more important things to worry about, or at least I do, like, "Why am I up this late when I have to be in a class early later this morning?" ??? Oh, well, at least I hacked the Beer Ticket system as the SANS conference last night with a little Social Engineering so I got two free Bass Ales instead of just one.
Sometimes I just get that sinking feeling just after I’ve clicked the add reply button.
Am I commiting high tautology by posting to a thread I think would have been better left unpicked? Probably perhaps.
An expression is an espresso: it’s a way of squeezing some life into language.
Idioms are for idiots (well, actually for idiôtês). They are idiosyncratic expressions. They are the expressions of some people but not all the people. British Marxist expressions about herbal tea appear quite idiomatic to others, indeed idiotic. Dig up some Greek radishes and parboil!
[quote author=Garzo link=board=idiom;num=1084308072;start=0#13 date=05/12/04 at 08:03:04]Idioms are for idiots (well, actually for idiôtês). They are idiosyncratic expressions. They are the expressions of some people but not all the people. British Marxist expressions about herbal tea appear quite idiomatic to others, indeed idiotic.
Garzo, you certainly have a way with words! I was just having this conversation with a friend last night, but you said it much better. I’m going to have to share your words of wisdom!
I like to think of an idiom as something that wouldn’t carry its meaning over very well if it were translated literally into some other language. I know, as a general rule, translating literally gets you into more trouble, even with common expressions. But it seems to be even more generally true for idiomatic expressions.
‘Happy camper’, is, therefore, an idiomatic expression, because we aren’t talking about campers in the literal sense.
‘Talk to the hand’ is even an idiomatic expression, because what you’re really saying is "I’m not going to listen to another word" or "you can stop right there, because I don’t want to hear it." I don’t know anyone who says that with the intention of encouraging someone to continue talking to their hand.
