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I couldn’t/could care less
Posted: 09 August 2005 04:24 AM   [ Ignore ]
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For as far back as I can remember, I’ve heard and used the expression, "I couldn’t care less." It’s pretty straightforward, meaning I care nothing at all about the subject at hand, therefore it’s not possible to care less about it. But a few years ago I heard someone say, "I could care less." Then I began to hear it more and more. What’s happening here? "I could care less" would appear to mean that the person does care about the subject, since he or she could care less about it. Is this one of those situations in our language where the opposite has become the real meaning? Like "bad" meaning "extremely good."

Wherever this trend is going, I refuse to say, "I could care less," when I really mean, "I couldn’t care less."

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Posted: 09 August 2005 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Good for you! Me too - it’s illogical and incredibly irritating (IMHO).

The only explanation I can think of is that it really means As if I could care less… In other words, there is no chance that I could care less. So it’s a bit like "Yeah, right", which appears to agree but implies the complete opposite.

Nod

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Posted: 09 August 2005 06:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Too late my time to do the job for you, but search http://www.languagehat.com/ and http://www.languagelog.com/ (the latter referring to Dr. Language tonight). One of them had rather recently comments on this issue.

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Posted: 09 August 2005 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Thanks, anders. I’m glad to see that a lot of other people have thought about this expression as well. I also agree with Nod, in that the expression is apparently intended to mean the opposite - like sarcasm, not just an error.

I guess what bothers me is that "could care less" is relatively new - I recall reading somewhere that it has mostly been used by younger people within the past 20 years or so. I am not in that demographic. I have always heard and used "couldn’t," and it’s worked for me. I guess I’m not really quick to adopt new hip expressions anyway.

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Posted: 09 August 2005 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Wherever this trend is going, I refuse to say, "I could care less," when I really mean, "I couldn’t care less."

It’s not logical, it’s confusing, but it’s what people are saying now. And I’m leaning toward saying it, because I have no choice.  

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Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read.—Groucho Marx.

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Posted: 09 August 2005 09:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Don’t worry, we EFL speakers won’t give up "couldn’t care less" so easily: I had never heard that otherwise! XD

Regards,

         WS.

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[I]Nuestras horas son minutos / cuando esperamos saber / y siglos cuando sabemos / lo que se puede aprender.[/I] Antonio Machado

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Posted: 10 August 2005 01:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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[quote author=melissa link=board=idiom;num=1123608268;start=0#4 date=08/10/05 at 02:00:28]It’s not logical, it’s confusing, but it’s what people are saying now. And I’m leaning toward saying it, because I have no choice.

You have no choice? Is it because you are in the demographic that says it, or because you feel you may not be understood?

Really, not everyone says it. Example, there is a popular radio talk show host in Los Angeles, Tom Lykis, who says "couldn’t" and has made fun of and corrected callers who say it the other way. He’s about 40, I think.

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Posted: 10 August 2005 03:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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could care less, couldn’t care less

Everyone konws that couldn’t care less is the older form of the expression.  Eric Partridge in A Dictionary of Catch Phrases (2d ed., 1985) says that the phrase arose around 1940 and was problably prompted by an earlier catch phrase, "I couldn’t agree with you more."  If we assume Partridge’s date of origin refers to speech, it is hard to quibble.  We do have a 1945 citation from a BBC war correspondent covering a British commando operation:

You would have thought that they were embarking on a Union picnic; they just couldn’t care less - Stewart Macpherson, 24 Mar. 1945, in The Oxford Book of English Talk, ed. James Sunderland, 1953

The OED Supplement and the editor of the second edition of Partridge’s book cite the phase as the title of a book published in 1946.;  It was established by the late 1950s and early 1960s in American use:

To me the elaborate framework, and symbolism, was too much for such petty characters.  I couldn’t have cared less what happened to any of them - Flannery O’Connor, letter, 17 Jan. 1968

". . . Some place with air condintiong.  And without a TV set.  I couldn’t care less about baseball." - James Baldwin, Another Country, 1962

The origin of could care less is also obscure.  All we know about it for sure is that it came later.  Harper 1875, 1985 reports getting letters asking about the expression starting in 1960.  That would suggest its existence in speech around that time.  No printed examples have so far turned up that antedate the 1966 examples collected by James B. McMillan and cited in his article in American Speech (Fall 1978 ).  Our earliest citation is from what appears to be a wire-service picture caption:

This roarless wonder at Chicago’s Brookfield Zoo could care less about the old saying dealing with the advent of March - Springfield (Mass.) Republican, 2 Mar. 1968

The reason why the negative particle was lost without changing the meaning of the phrase has been the subject of much speculation, most of it not very convincing.  No one seems to have advanced the simple idea that the rhythm of the phrase may be better for purposes of emphatic sarcasm with could care less, which would have its main stress on care, than with couldn’t care less, where the stress would be more nearly equal on could and care.  You, however, may not find this argument very convincing either.

The attitude of the commentators toward could care less has in general been negative.  Safire 1980 saw usage of could care less as having peaked in 1973; he dismissed it as defunct in 1980.  But it has not disappeared:

The Americans, of course, could care less about British reaction - Joseph White, Springfield (Mass.) Union-News, June 1993

. . . they could care less what anybody outside the team thinks of them - E. M. Swift, Sports Illustrated, 6 Apr. 1987

. . . instead of belonging to an old-line business lobby . . . she is a member of the more militant National Federation of Independent Business. . . . She could care less about the IMF.  Her concerns are doing away with estate taxes . . . - Richard Dunham, Business Week, 14 Sept. 1998

Bernstein 1971 thought it not quite established then; if it becomes established, he ways, it will be another example of "reverse English."  Pairs of words or phrases that look like opposites but mean the same thing are not unkown in English: ravel/unravel, can but/cannot but, for instance.

This is what our present evidence suggests: while could care less may be superior in speech for purposes of sarasm, it is hard to be obviously sarcastic in print.  This may explain why most writers, faced with putting the words on paper, choose the clearer couldn’t care less.

From Merriam Webster’s Concise Dictionary of English Usage

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Posted: 10 August 2005 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Good research and analysis, Brazilian Dude. Thanks very much.

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Posted: 10 August 2005 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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No research, no analysis, just took my áss off the chair, went to the bookshelf and typed everything up.

Brazilian dude

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Languages rule!

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Posted: 10 August 2005 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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[quote author=WonderingSpaniard link=board=idiom;num=1123608268;start=0#5 date=08/10/05 at 06:35:22] EFL speakers

English First Language?

So, B_D you’ve some kind of giant library house…? I thought you got all of that pff the internet…


J

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[move]estoy broncéandome-je suis plastique-Los perritos son..no sé-Tenho uma cama-Ho una gallina che si chiama MaryLou y la amo-El be fa be be-W Szczebrzesczynie chrząszsz brzmi w trzcinie[/move]

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Posted: 10 August 2005 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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I do have some books, but not as many as I wish.

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Posted: 11 August 2005 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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You have no choice? Is it because you are in the demographic that says it, or because you feel you may not be understood?

Both really,  I always try to be understood first,  then worry about my demographic. I think I can say "I could care less" and also "I couldn’t  care less"  and people would understand me. They mean the same thing. They’re expressions, and expressions aren’t required to be grammatical.

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Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read.—Groucho Marx.

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Posted: 12 August 2005 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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[quote author=Katy link=board=idiom;num=1123608268;start=15#15 date=08/12/05 at 14:48:45]‘I could care less’ sounds like one of those hypercorrected, and wrongly too I might add phrases like He gave it to ‘she and I’.

You may have hit upon how these things get started. I hear this "[any preposition] she and I" nonsense so much nowadays, especially on reality TV shows, and I think what’s happening is that the more people hear it, the more they think it must be correct - without even thinking for themselves about how it sounds.

Possibly (and it’s just my theory) someone - someone who should have known better -  once said, "I could care less." It could have been a mistake. Or the person may have actually said it correctly, but if you say that phrase quickly using "couldn’t," it almost sounds like you’re saying "could." So hearing it as "could," the listener assumed that was the correct way to say it, and repeated it in another conversation. It spread from there.

I really shudder to think that someday such usage as "between you and I" will be considered correct since it will have such widespread use and acceptance, kind of like "I could care less." I hate when that happens.

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Posted: 12 August 2005 09:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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[quote author=bfrank link=board=idiom;num=1123608268;start=15#16 date=08/12/05 at 17:27:49]
I really shudder to think that someday such usage as "between you and I" will be considered correct since it will have such widespread use and acceptance, kind of like "I could care less." I hate when that happens.

Hate hate hate… that’s the easiest of reactions grin.
Look at it from the postive side: it means that English is a normal (because changing), vital, dynamic language which hasn’t yet atrophied. We should be happy about that. Yippie.

Frank

 

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Posted: 12 August 2005 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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[quote author=frank link=board=idiom;num=1123608268;start=15#17 date=08/12/05 at 18:48:23]Hate hate hate… that’s the easiest of reactions grin.
Look at it from the postive side…

Of course I was being a little facetious. I know the language continuously changes.

But when is change real change and when is it just poor usage?

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