Agora Forums
 
   
1 of 2
1
"H" etymology
Posted: 20 July 2004 12:09 AM   [ Ignore ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1091
Joined  2004-05-04

Could anybody tell why the letter "H" is called (h)aitch in English?  It is irregular if you go by Latin/Romance rules.

Thank you in advance,
Flam

 Signature 

Fortunae rota volvitur; descendo minoratus; alter in altum tollitur; nimis exaltatus.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 July 2004 12:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1233
Joined  2004-04-29

In some English accents this is pronounced ‘haitch’. The standard is pronunciation is ‘aitch’. In Liverpool the pronunciation is something of an article of faith: Catholics use the former, Protestants the latter.

I think Geoffrey Sampson (p110, Writing Systems) gives the most straightforward explanation. The original Latin name for H was he, because it was a h sound followed by the neutral (to Etruscans anyway) vowel. However, the letter became known as ahha in popular Latin, perhaps due to its weakness. In Romance languages the H was generally dropped as an independent sound, and there arose all sorts of difficulties in naming the letter. Without a true h sound, the letter became /axxa/, and finally /akka/. Just as the Latin cow, vacca, gave Norman /vatše/ and modern French /vaš/, vache, so /akka/ gave Norman /atše/. This became /aš/, ache, in modern French, where the sound changes of Middle English produced /eitš/.

 Signature 

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.&&-The First Letter of Saint Paul to the Corinthians, chapter 13.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 July 2004 01:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1254
Joined  2004-03-10

A parallel to ahha is found in Panjabi.

Normally, Indo-Aryan languages call consonants X "X-maker"; k is kaakar etc. But in Panjabi, kakaar refers only to the five attributes of a Sikh, all beginning with the letter k. However, the name of the letter k is kakkaa, g is gaggaa etc.

 Signature 

“Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.” - Groucho Marx

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 July 2004 01:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1091
Joined  2004-05-04

Thank you, Garzo and Anders.  Very enlightening. :D

 Signature 

Fortunae rota volvitur; descendo minoratus; alter in altum tollitur; nimis exaltatus.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 01:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1091
Joined  2004-05-04

And in contrast, how did English "accident" /‘aksident/ deviate from Latin /akkid. . . /?  A more probable pronunciation would be /‘assident/ or /‘akkedent/.

 Signature 

Fortunae rota volvitur; descendo minoratus; alter in altum tollitur; nimis exaltatus.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 04:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1138
Joined  2004-04-02

because accidents were often caused by axes…

 Signature 

“Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”—Douglas Adams

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1254
Joined  2004-03-10

Whatever the reason was, the change in pronuncation should have occured already in Latin—unless cc was the way to represent -ks- (or -ch-?).

A similar, perhaps parallel, case is angel. It is written aggelos in Greek, but the pronunciation is a[U]ng[/U]gelos.

 Signature 

“Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.” - Groucho Marx

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 06:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1934
Joined  2003-12-26

This discussin reminds me of the French h aspiré (aspirated h) and h muet (mute h).  In practice, the h has been mute for centuries (but it did have a sound in archaic French) and there’s no such thing as an h aspiré.  The only reason for its name is that it doesn’t allow for elisions (dropping the e in the article le et la, i.g., l’homme vs. le héros) and liaisons (pronouncing the s in plural words before starting with a vowel, i.e., les homes /lezom/ and les héros /le ero/).

The H, as has been pointed out, has no sound in modern Romance languages (some dialect speakers of Spanish pronounce it like a Spanish j in some words, where there was an etymological f - but it is pronounced in Romanian, but Romanian just likes to be different,  hehehe) and, for that reason, Italian has decided to eliminate it at the beginning of words, except for the forms ho, hai, ha, and hanno - first, second, third person singular forms and third plural form of the verb avere (to have) so as not to confuse with o (or), ai (to the), a (to) and anno (year), and in some interjections like ah, ahimè and a few others.

To summarize, the state of things now in Romance languages is:
Latin: humanus, Portuguese and Spanish humano, Italian umano, French humain, Romanian uman (it doesn’t have an h here).

Brazilian dude

 Signature 

Languages rule!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1233
Joined  2004-04-29

Thank you, BD!

I have always ellided the French definite article to a word beginning with h - I simply knew no better - thanks for the ‘eads-up on that one!

- Garzo, who drank too many Caipirinhas last night and now thinks he’s in Rio…

 Signature 

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.&&-The First Letter of Saint Paul to the Corinthians, chapter 13.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1934
Joined  2003-12-26

Then you’re on another level than I am, my dear Garzo.  I’ve never had any caipirinha in my entire life (I don’t drink, you see).

Brazilian dude

 Signature 

Languages rule!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1934
Joined  2003-12-26

Oh, maybe it would be nice to know that dictionaries mark those "h aspiré" words with an asterisk.

Brazilian dude

 Signature 

Languages rule!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2004 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3773
Joined  2002-08-01
[quote author=Brazilian_dude link=board=etymology;num=1090328954;start=0#9 date=07/24/04 at 20:49:31]Then you’re on another level than I am, my dear Garzo.  I’ve never had any caipirinha in my entire life (I don’t drink, you see).

wink  Then you’re eating an awful lot of frozen drinks, perhaps?  Must be terribly difficult finding enough foods with sufficient water contents to properly hydrate… wink

-Tim
...so would the English expression "I don’t drink" be an idiom…?

 Signature 

For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more… and realize that men’s hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words. - JRR Tolkien

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 July 2004 03:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1138
Joined  2004-04-02

-Tim
...so would the English expression "I don’t drink" be an idiom…?

I like this version: "I don’t drink… vine..."    <^..^>

gailr

 Signature 

“Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”—Douglas Adams

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 July 2004 03:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1934
Joined  2003-12-26

There’s something stupid people sometimes say here, "Ele não bebe, come com farinha" (he doens’t drink, he eats with flour).  What the hell is that supposed to mean?  Well, I think I’m asking in the wrong forum, LOL.

Brazilian dude

P.S. Well, of course I know what it means (someone goes on drinking binges and such) but it doesn’t make any sense what flour has to do with it.

 Signature 

Languages rule!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 July 2004 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1138
Joined  2004-04-02

Dude, is it a pun on "grains" rather than on the flour itself? Think how many grain-based alcohols people have learned to [s]bake[/s] brew throughout history!

gailr

 Signature 

“Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”—Douglas Adams

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 July 2004 07:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1254
Joined  2004-03-10

Ingrained habits?

 Signature 

“Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.” - Groucho Marx

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 2
1
 
‹‹ moon shine      "Land Sakes!" ››