Here is an example of "substratum influence" where an earlier Celtic word has left traces in several modern Romance languages. Spanish marrano 1) "pig, hog" 2) "filthy person and Catalan marrà "ram"
e.g. Empenyeré tota la nit com un marrà (I will thrust all night like a ram) are etymologically related to the Welsh words for "ram": my(r)haran and maharer.
Whether this is an ancient Hispano-Celtic word in modern Spanish and Catalan or a borrowing from neighboring Gaul (now France) is hard to tell. Another substratic influence in Spanish and Catalan is Iberian. It is probably Celtic and Lusitanian in Portuguese but historical linguists are not certain that Lusitanian was Iberian. The ancient Greek geographer Strabo implies that Lusitania (now Portugal) was inhabited by a people who were culturally and ethnically different from those in Spain.
The Iberians once inhabited a large part of Western Europe but how large is not certain. Certainly as far north as Scotland maybe as far east as Switzerland and Bavaria. Basque is probably its only descendant. The Celts eventually ranged from Ireland to Hungary, Scotland to Turkey and Northern Italy to southern Poland, maybe Denmark.
Substratum influences can be found in languages all over the world (For example, Russian vor "thief" is Finno-Ugrian) but the phenomenon has not been studied very much , especially in non-Indo European languages. :)
Portuguese also has marrano:
1 Diz-se de, ou designação injuriosa dada outrora aos mouros e judeus.
2 Diz-se de, ou indivíduo excomungado, sujo, imundo, porco.
3 Brasileiro, Rio Grande do Sul. Diz-se de, ou gado ruim.
Thanks for your response. The Portuguese equivalent of ‘marrano’ you mentioned is interesting but kind of a a boderline case.
W.D. Elcock in his book "The Romance Languages" doesn’t mention Spanish marrano "pig" as a word with any cognates or isoglosses in Portuguese. Rather, ‘marrano’ in Portuguese appears to be a loan word from Spanish and in this context, is a disparaging term for Jews who converted to Christianity during the Middle Ages (Conversos). Some scholars even believe that this word is from an Arabic word ‘mahram’ ("forbidden") and is a false friend of marrano meaning "pig". Elcock does mention the "pig" meaning of the word though as having cognates in Aragonese mardà and Catalan marrà (ram) and says that marrà is a common word meaning "ram" in southern France too. This is the form which has its relative in Welsh myrharen or maharen "ram".
Elcock lists ‘marrano’ as another example of a pre-Roman word in Spanish similar to perro ‘"dog" and zorro "fox" which ousted the Latin canis and vulpis. :)
Yeah, you’re right about that, Brian. We got the word from Spanish and it doesn’t have the animal meaning as it does in Spanish, only the ones I listed before, especially those referring to Jews.
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I liked all the bits about the the sheep; thanks for the links, people.
BTW: a cleric I admire once pointed out that contemporary Christians in industrialized nations tend to get all sentimental about being in the "flock of the Good Shepherd" bits of the gospels. But, as Tim’s link made clear, this is not entirely complimentary. Those images made use of a common occupation at the time, and the different subtexts would have been clear to the original hearers. (Including the premise that sheep will only follow ‘their’ shepherd’s voice; but if sick they will follow anyone, anywhere.) Also, what is the ultimate, non-sentimental fate of sheep? To be regularly fleeced and finally slaughtered. My grandparents had sheep; they were further behind the barn-door than the chickens when brains were passed out… :(
[quote author=Katy link=board=etymology;num=1122706646;start=0#7 date=10/28/05 at 12:41:14]... blanket disclaimers… thought that a disclaimer meant "I’m making a claim, but just in case you don’t agree with me, I am not involved."
[quote author=Tim link=board=etymology;num=1122706646;start=0#8 date=10/28/05 at 15:59:28]Yes, kind of a "I’ll only take credit for this if you agree with it" kind of endorsement…
You know, you guys are right. From now on, I am going to use the following, just to be safe:
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D. By the way, I think I just committed three or four felonies by doing this.
hahahahahahah, too funny BD, that was hilarius, the violations of your warnings are misdemeanors, punishable only by tickets. Altho I remember saving all the tags ready to sew back on when the cops came. I had a drawerful.
Back to the issue Brian studiously posted at the outset, I recommend the reading of the article marrano in vol. III of Corominas, Dicc. Critico Etimologico Castellano e Hispánico. Proposed celtic, basque and a couple of other etymologies are analyzed and finally discarded in favour of the most probable arabic origin (it is prudently put that way, despite the depth of the research). The ‘ancestor’ would be the verb haram, to forbid (cf. harem). Corominas adds that marrano meant initially porc (the meat) - the forbidden one - and not the animal and reminds that in Portuguese there are the ‘allotropics’ marrão (pig and porc) and (in Beira) marrã (fem. - only porc).
Thank you, Ricardo, I’d never heard marrão before, and it’s indeed in my dictionary, with two other senses as well. This forum doesn’t cease to amaze me.
