I don’t know whether they’re vocatives or one uses them just to show respect or condescendance for his conversation partner.
Anyway, I would like to know the approximate meaning and usage of the different degrees one has in Japanese to address others, such as: "-chan" "-kun", "-san", "-sama" and so on.
No, they’re not vocatives
Japanese society is an egalitarian society, but there are some kind of, let’s say, "hierarchies" that are very marked in the language, specially the differences in age.
In Japanese, if you refer to someone you have to put one of this suffixes. For example: "-san"could be an approximation to English "Mr.", Spanish "Sr.", etc.
This one is quite formal, so there are others that are more and less formal.
Here is a list:
-dono (SUPER-MEGA-ULTRA-formal): Archaic. It’s almost not used. Only in old movies of samurais and that kind of stuff and to refer to Buddha.
-sama (very formal): This one is used specially in client-salesman relationships. Bills and Letters that weren’t written by people you know are always addressed to X-sama, and not X-san.
Also used by the king’s subordinates to refer to him.
I’m not sure of this one, but I think it’s also used to refer to gods, because I’ve read several kamis (Shinto gods) names and their names are written with it. Also God, with caps, is said "Kami-sama", so…
-san (formal):I’ve already spoken about this one
-kun (medium): Let me explain. First of all, AFAIK, it’s only used in men. It’s generally used in:
A) "Superior" talking to "inferior", but quite less formal than -san.
B) Classmates that aren’t close
C) Girl to a boy, expressing familiarity with the addressed boy
-chan (informal):Used in:
A)Fond suffix to tots
B)Used between young girls, but just when they are VERY familiar with her.
You can also use the job of a person as a suffix.
For example, "senpai", which means a colleague with more experience, to make it easy. "Sensei" (teacher) or "gakuchou" (High school principal) are other examples.
Finally, you can refer to your family, close friends that are young, etc to its name without using any suffix.
Espero poder haberte respondido.
Well, Flam, it’d be good if you wanted to contribute with this. So please do it
Korean also has many honorific titles and forms of addresses: Sonsaan = Teacher; Sonsaan-nim = Mr., Sonsaan-ssi =Mrs, Miss, etc. but in North Korea there has been an attempt to replace all of them with just Jonu (Comrade). The exceptions, naturally, have been the heads of state: Kimilsungbio (Great Leader Comrade Kim Il Sung) and Kimjongilbio (Great Leader Comrade Kim Jong il).
Much thanks Male_Boogiepop! I had more or less that idea too, but never heard of "-dono", as you said might be so archaic.
And "-chan", I´ve heard it, in jap conversations as A) and B), but also with young boys calling girls (logically not tots), to show some kind of care, or something…..
I don´t know if it´s just a coincidence, but usually that boy calling the girl followed by "-chan", likes her too.
I may be utterly confused…..but I´ve heard it, so…..
Since you ask, Boogie, I try my best below. But you have left little to explain.
1. All the titles mentioned hithertofore by Agorists are asex except -kun. "-chan" is originally a word to express endearment for minors but now the use is widened to include endearment of adult world. This "endearment" has an marked air of condescension, thus it is improper if it is used by an inferior to a superior.
2. Even -kun can be used for women when a boss is referring to a female subordinate, for example. Use of -kun too has a condescending air, as evidenced by -kuns to refer to sex symbol women by the media.
3. In contrast, -dono connotes formality. It is so formal today that nobody uses it except for official documents submitted to or by governmental institutions. All other occasions are managed by -san or -sama depending on the degree of formality in need. Bureaucrats stick around -dono because they believe this connotes pure formality and there is no hint of hierarchy therein. Unfortunately this theory is not upheld by ordinary Japanese.
4. It should be noted that those name suffixes are used for all occasions except very casual ones. Business world rotates around mostly -sama and to a bit lesser degree around -san. "Name calling" (calling a person by his family name alone or even worse by his first name) is strictly forbidden in classrooms, which is Japanese enough to allow teachers call students by their family names without name suffixes. I am not talking about some grad schools where being friendly and sociable matters very little, but this is practise of elementary school and then on.
5. I was once flabbergasted by a TV programme to hear a newly wed husband suddenly started to address his bride by her personal name only, whereas before the wedding the couple had been addressing each other using -san suffix. I was too young to remember the programme correctly, but the story must have taken place in pre-WWII Japan. Now in the 21st century I know several couples, young and old, who address each other using personal suffixes -chan or -san among each other (remember most down to earth Japanese uses no personal pronouns) and for other people. Beside that this is still a rarity, this is a proof of the deep root of name suffixation practise of Japanese.
Flaminius-me,
(me is a self-deprecating name suffix, more obsolete than -dono)
[quote author=brian_costello link=board=translate;num=1090593441;start=0#2 date=07/24/04 at 03:37:14] The exceptions, naturally, have been the heads of state: Kimilsungbio (Great Leader Comrade Kim Il Sung) and Kimjongilbio (Great Leader Comrade Kim Jong il).
—- Brian C. :o
among other sycophantisms like;
great general [honorific]
general [hon.] filled with father-like compassion
great leader [hon.] with discerning judgment
great dog warden [hon.] who takes his pleasure [hon.] in making grade-B horror pictures
Is it right that the two North Korean leaders are usually called the ‘Great Leader’ and the ‘Dear Leader’? If so, to which leader do the names apply? I imagine Kim Il Sung is ‘Great Leader’. Does anyone know the Korean for these two titles? Brian?
Hello. We’re having a hot day here in Seattle. I hope for your sake it’s cooler in England even though you all get a lot of that warm air off the gulfstream.
I had a list of several North Korean titles in Korean until I moved in April and lost the list, including "The Great Leader". Now I’ll have to go back to the UW library and see if I can recover them.
It’s been said that North Korea has the closest thing to a monarchy in a Communist country. This is not allowed under true Communism, even true Marism-Leninism which is considered a heresy by some experts on Marxism (i.e. Communism). A few years back, the leader of the British Communist Party paid Kim il Sung a visit.
Brian, savour, while you can, the oddity of this specimen of an endangered species.
North Korea is no different from those petty little Stalin states that were Romania, Albania, Poland, East Germany, or even China back in the period from 60s to 80s. What amazes the world about this brave new country is that it survived the downfall of Stalin the realia, Stalins the minions, Cold War, economic catastrophie and famines caused by human negligence. You can augment the peculiarity list by reference to the inherited power, neuclear weapons and insidious support China renders to it.
B U T , I don’t think North Korea can remain intact for a long time, though it’s hard to predict the world will be safer for it or not.
Flam, I reckon that the answer is close to what Orwell described so well in 1984. I’m not talking about "doublethink" or "newspeech" or any of those Big Brother’s gadgets, but to the fact that a really tough government can remain in power as long as it wishes.
Many theories expose that the change of the French Revolution with respect to the Old Regime was only possible because the Burgeois had somehow already taken the power. Also, the peasantry wasn’t in such bad state, but rather strong enough to revolt.
If you’re constantly struggling for your life not to die of inanition, it’s very unlikely that you might find strength to threaten a well-established [I]status quo[/I]. And those atop needn’t have a Big Brother with visiscreens… It suffices if they totally control supplies of any kind, as is the prerrogative of any Communist government.
Wow, this sounds really [I]politisch-orientiert[/I]... I’d better give it up.
I hear you. It was either Time or Newsweek about 13 years ago that compared North Korea to a monarchy. Of course, some people say that Castro is really a "banana king" and if this is so, that would make his government virtually a monarchy too.
I’ve also heard it said that Castro, Che Guevara and Kim Il Sung would have all gone down in history as great men if they had simply been on the right side and that they have proven themselves to be good leaders regardless of their politics. It sounds plausible. These are some of the things that historians and political scientists like to debate and will be debating for a long time to come.
I’d just like to say that it is all more complicated that has been heretofore indicated.
"Dono" is still alive and well. It is used (as previously stated) in formal circumstances, usually in public assemblies when the person being address as "Suzuki-dono" is being given an award or citation. The speaker could of course be the superior of the addressee (the president of the company) and the addressee the salesman who booked more orders than anyone else last year.
"Sensei" has not been mentioned but is used for teachers, doctors, lawyers, PhDs, master craftsmen and even just about anyone to whom one wishes to show a great deal of respect.
"kun" is used almost (99.9%) to address males and is always used with surnames. It is not usually reciprocal. That is if Mr. Suzuki addresses Mr. Tanaka as "Tanaka-kun," Mr. Tanaka will probably say "Suzuki-san." Females who use the -kun when addressing females are probably being iconoclastic. Can be used with male animals.
"-chan" is a familiar form that can be used with close friends. Although most commonly heard addressed to females and children up to about the age of puberty, it can be used with adult males. It is commonly used with first names but can be used with last names. The name is usually abbreviated: Kyoko (female given name) becomes Kyo-chan, Tanaka (a family name) would probably become Ta-chan. "Chan" is also used with pets and animals.
"sama" is always used when addressing letters. It is also used to address (and refer to) customers: "Ogyukusama" (honorific-guest/customer-Mr/Ms); "Nanmeisama" (how many-names-Mr/Ms); "rokumeisama hairimasu" (6-name-Mr/Ms enter: from the receptionist to the rest of the restaurant staff: "I’m seating 6 customers")
"san" is the default meaning Mr/Ms. It is also used with occupations: omawarisan (honorific-policeofficer-Mr/Ms), untenshusan (driver-Mr/Ms, used to address a taxi driver for example).
[quote author=bnjtokyo link=board=translate;num=1090593441;start=0#12 date=07/26/04 at 05:48:35]"Dono" is still alive and well. It is used (as previously stated) in formal circumstances, usually in public assemblies when the person being address as "Suzuki-dono" is being given an award or citation.
"Dono" used in an award or citation is not really part of spoken register of Japanese. It is just read as it is from the document that is about to be handed to the laureate.
"kun" is used almost (99.9%) to address males and is always used with surnames. It is not usually reciprocal. That is if Mr. Suzuki addresses Mr. Tanaka as "Tanaka-kun," Mr. Tanaka will probably say "Suzuki-san."
In business or mature world this description is suffice. However, in private domains where hierarchical relation is not as prevalent, "kun" can be reciprocally used with first names (but here, too, it is rarely used for females). Elementary schools usually endorse "kun" and "san" with family names respectively for boys and girls. Close peer boys may be allowed to address each other with "kun" with first name, with "chan" or nicknames with or without "chan," but girls do not address each other with "san" with first names.
I thought "-chan" "-kun", "-san" and "-sama" are explained away in two or three posts. But as I write this, I realise that they have subtleties and nuances that would keep me forever posting on this subject. Phew. Currently I will not cover more specific name suffixes like "sensei," "oshoo," "kyooju" and address forms that are used independent of first or family names because they will need a lot more lengthy treatment.
Flam,
whose o-kyaku-samaS are tapping their foot nervously untile he meets his deadline.
My advice to WS is to stick to san always. Then you don’t risk to be too polite or too familiar. Anyway, the Japanese are generally lenient to foreigners that make misstakes since they think that the Japanese language is impossiible to learn for non-Japanese or you may fall in to Mr Flam’s trap by explaining and explaining and nothing will come from your tied tounge.
itinera brevissima linguarum per nativitate sunt.
sum felix quoniam multi homines tunc Iaponiam loquntur in Agora.
Flam,
who invariably uses "-san" in order to be formal and polite. This convention has not yet met strong opposition apparently because I haven’t met enough big shots who consider themselves senseis.
Much thanks Male_Boogiepop! I had more or less that idea too, but never heard of "-dono", as you said might be so archaic.
