Since this site has many people who speak French, Spanish or Portuguese or have an interest in these languages I thought I would post some material about the Catalan language of eastern Spain spoken in Valencia and Barcelona.
This language also evolved out of the popular or vulgar Latin of the Roman Empire. Like French, Spanish and Portuguese, it also contains some autocthonous pre-Roman elements Gos "dog" and Picarra "slate" from Iberian; Garra "claw" Gat "cat" and Coma "depression; small valley" from Celtic cf. Welsh gar "talon"; cath "cat"; cwm "valley". It is midway between Spanish and French. For example, Catalonians say hola and gracies for "Hello" and "Thank you" just like the Spanish but their words for "Please" Si us plau (pronounced seess plow) and "Goodbye" A reveure ( Ah reh-vew-ruh) are more like the French Si il vous plait and Au revoir. The most common theory is that this is because Charlemagne’s Frankish (i.e. French) soldiers were in the region for a long time in an effort to keep the Moors further away from France. Another theory says that even in Roman times Tarraconia (as it was known then) had closer relations with Gaul (France) than the rest of the Iberian Peninsula.
Catalonia is a region of Spain that always seems to be revolting. The Spanish have the same kinds of problems with the Catalonians that the English have had with the Scotch and the Welsh. There was a huge revolt in 1697. Ironically, the Spanish put the revolt down with a French mercenary army lead by an Englishman. In the 1930’s many Catalonians sided with the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War as the lesser of evils. They knew that Generalissimo Franco was absolutely opposed to Catalonian separatism.
Catalan is a language rich in poetry, even very beautiful and esthetically pleasing poetry but unfortunately most of it is published in academic journals and not available on the internet or in regular bookstores. Below is a sample of some poetry in Catalan with English translations, followed by a discussion about Catalan and Catalonia by some Catalan poets.
If any of you know anything about this language or have any opinions on it, please feel free to comment.
I know that Stargazer and Wondering Spaniard know Spanish. Anders is versatile in many languages and might know something about it too. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Garzo said that he vacations in Spain which means he would almost certainly have heard about it.
Actually, if memory serves, I believe Stargzer studied French in school, rather than Spanish. But I believe that a basic understanding of either language will aid you in the research and study of the other.
He trobat a algú que s’interessa per la llengua catalana. Això és fantàstic! Jo he tingut l’interès d’aprendre-la i puc donar-te algunes informacions si tu vols.
Brazilian dude
(I’ve found someone that is interested in the Catalan language. That is fantastic! I’ve had had the interest in learning it and I can give you some information if you like.)
I remember when driving in Spain towards Barcelona and stopping to ask a guy for directions or something. I was rather irritated and embarrassed, because I found it difficult to understand what he said. Several years later, I got the suspicion that he had been speaking Catalan.
I can’t claim that I can read Catalan without difficulties, and my "Catalan in three months" is clearly too optimistic. (It also complicates things by using a very "English" phonetic transcription.) There are worse optimists, though: "Learn Tamil in 30 days"...
On a language fair in Brussels, I picked up a leaflet advertising a course in Catalan, "Digui, digui". "Bien que le course ait été pensé spécialmente pour les gens qui habitent la Catalogne puissent comprendre et utiliser le catalan dans leur vir quotidienne, il est aussi utile pour les gens qui étudient le catalan hors de la Catalogne". I saw one short piece on TV, and it was one of the best of its kind, although seemingly advancing very slowly. The printed materiel will probably be quite good.
I like the looks of the language, and it is on my "Wanted" list, although not very near the top.
In a lot of cases, the Catalan word is similar to Italian or French, and not to Portuguese or Spanish:
Examples:
(to eat) Portuguese/Spanish comer, French manger, Italian mangiare, Catalan menjar
(small) Portuguese: pequeno, Spanish: pequeño, Italian: piccolo, French/Catalan: petit
(to find) Portuguese/Spanish: encontrar, French: trouver, Italian: trovare, Catalan: trobar
Catalan words have that "Latin" f, which, in some words, has been lost in Spanish:
(ant)Portuguese/Catalan: formiga, Italian/Latin: formica, French: fourmi
Catalan vowels can be accented like this: à è é í ó ò ú ï and there’s also the ç, which, as far as know, only exists in Portuguese and French (I think I have seen it in Turkish too, but I don’t know Turkish, so I may be wrong.) The Catalan specialty, however, is the two l’s separated by a dot in the middle (my computer can’t do that, sorry), which makes the l more elongated, like in the word il-lustrar (remember, it should be a dot in the middle), to illustrate.
Catalan also doesn’t like nasal consonants at the end of a word, but it "reintegrates" them in the plural:
(hand) la mà; (hands) les mans (Cfr. Portuguese mão, Spanish/Italian mano, French main)
(Catalan) català; (Catalans) catalans (Cfr. Portuguese catalão, Spanish catalán, Italian catalano, French catalan)
Pronouns can be be quite complicated. There are stressed and weak pronouns. Stressed pronouns are used as the subject of a clause or after prepositions. Weak pronouns are used before verbs. There are weak pronouns before vowel sounds and weak pronouns before consonant sounds. The word me, for example, has four possible translations: me after verbs in the infinitive (Gràcies per enviar-me les informacions que necessitava = Thank you for sending me the information I needed); em before verbs starting with a consonant sound (Ella em dóna una bona notícia = She gives me some good news); m’ before vowels and h (never aspirated): la meva mare m’estima (my mother loves me); mi after prepositions: (Els meus amics saben tot sobre mi = My friends know everything about me).
The construction with the verb anar (to go) + another verb in the infinitive, surprisingly enough, doesn’t have a future connotation, but refers to the past:
Vaig rebre un regal de la meva amiga francesa. = I got a present from my French friend.
Catalan, like Italian and French, has the pronouns hi (French y, Italian ci) to refer to places, and en (like French en and Italian ne - disguised as n’ in the example below) as partitives, something that doesn’t exist in either Portuguese or Spanish:
Has menjat la torta que t’he preparat? Sí, n’he menjat i la trobo molt bona. (Have you eaten the pie that I made for you? Yes, I did (of it, meaning a part of it, not all of it) and I find it very good.
La meva família no va mai a l’església. No hi van perquè no son molt religiosos. (My family never goes to church. They don’t go (there) because they’re not very religious.)
Catalan unstressed vowels are pronounced almost like a schwa, g’s and j’s are pronounced like Portuguese/French g’s (like the s in measure) and z’s sound different from s’s (unlike Spanish - I know Castilian z’s don’t sound like s’s, Wandering Spaniard will say!) and x’s are almost always pronounced like sh (except in the combination ex like in exterior) like Portuguese and Basque.
J’ai trois problèmes seulement avec la langue de français: la grammaire, le vocabulaire, la prononciation et le compréhension. [Les doigts de Stargzer changes de troi à quatre] Zut alors! Je ne peut pas compter aussi!
I didn’t gather Catalan was unknown to many people, as Brian suggests… In fact, given how much earnst Catalans give to showing off their language, I’d say it’s quite well known, at least throughout Europe. ;D It is spoken in Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands and certain enclaves in Sardinia, heirs of the Aragonese Mediterranean expansion. Its description as halfway between Castillian and French is quite accurate.
We may divide the dialects into two main regions: western and eastern Catalan, separated by a meridian that halves Catalonia and leaves its province of Lérida/Lleida with the whole of the Comunidad/Comunitat Valenciana on the one side and the rest of the Catalan speaking community on the other… I speak off the top of my head, so there might be inaccuracies, but I remember it was roughly so.
The Catalan spoken in Valencia (some call it "valenciano" and argue it is another tongue) is much closer in pronuciation and vocabulary to Castillian and not at all widespread among the population. From my own experience, in Catalonia, almost anyone masters Catalan… In Valencia only few really speak more than a couple of expressions and most turn to Castillian quickly… In Lérida/Lleida they have their own style, still quite different from what one may call "High Catalan" of Barcelona’s like.
[I]Tarraco, nowadays Tarragona by the Mediterrenean Sea, about 120km southern Barcelona, was capital firstly of the province of Citerior -in opposition to Ulterior with capital in Cartago Nova- and later of the Tarraconensis[/I], a vast province stretching to the Atlantic Ocean in Galicia. It later broke up and Tarraco remained capital of a smaller part, still with no shape-relation with current Catalonia.
Catalonia is historically speaking as revolting a region as Castille could have been. It depends on the time we’re speaking about. Notwithstanding, more recently, they have cunningly taken advantage of their unfairness towards them due to some issues I shall explain immediately.
The problem is that the different regions of Spain usually tended to support enemy factions… Curiously enough, the regional festivities in both Castille and Catalonia "celebrate" famous defeats against the overwhelming and abstract power of "The Spanish Empire".
Brian, the Spaniards didn’t put down a revolt in Catalonia, because the Catalonians are Spaniards themselves… It was in 1640 when, simultaneously with Portugal, Catalonia, just another region in the enormous intricate of the Spanish Empire back then, rose against the central power. I’m sure there were troops from all throughout Europe fighting them, as subjects to the King’s Court in Madrid… But most certainly not Frenchmen, I don’t know where you got that from, Brian… In fact, the Catalans, in an attempt to save their privileges gave the crown to Louis XIV of France… but he didn’t care much, so that the revolt was indeed put down and with enough retaliation.
Also, in the Spanish Succesion War (1702-1714) when, lacking an heir to the throne of the Empire, Castille and most of the Spanish terrirory supported the Borbon (French) candidate: Felipe, Duke of Anjou, whereas Catalonia stuck to the Habsburg aspirant in the person of Carlos of Austria. International alliances were determinant. The British, "referees" in the fight, finally inclined the balance favourably to the Borbons. (I guess that’s what you’re talking about, Brian… We paid a high price to the British in Utrecht’s Treaty ¬¬) In revenge, the new monarch Felipe V promulgated the Decretos de Nueva Planta, relegating the Catalan language to a unofficial condition and equaling every law in his states to those applying in Castille.
The whole of Catalonia was, as the city of Madrid, one of the strongholds of the Republicans, during the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). To this respect, I’d recommend [I]Homage to Catalonia[/I] by George Orwell who fought there himself as a volunteer -and retired in despair and disappointment.
When Franco won, he tried an unheard of "Spanish Nationalism" in a country that had never had a strong, actual political or juridical union, albeit a well settled concept of belonging to a common space. This aberrance he based on Castillian language and some cultural nonsense picked up from around the country and for the third time, the Catalan language was marginated.
It only survived due to a long and affirmed literarian tradition and the fact that Catalans, unlike Basques, for instance, spoke as vivid a language as any Castillian. This "wounds" made by a mediocre man in search of ideology have cause Spain great pains… and I cross my fingers and pray they won’t cause further ones.
I hope this is understandable and helpful to anyone interested. I’m sorry to say that, although I understand it written and most of the times spoken, I don’t speak a word of Catalan myself.
Regards,
WS.
[edit]S h i t! As I wrote this many people hasve posted!! Luckily, BD has filled the gap concerning the language itself… xD I deeply admire you, man!
By the way, Stargazer, thanks for trusting my knowledge of Spanish more than Brian does…;D [/edit]
No need to use the equivalent of the Catalan word merda, WS It doesn’t matter if others have posted on the same topic while you were composing such a detailed and interesting response.
Might I just question this, though?:
Catalans, unlike Basques, for instance, spoke as vivid a language as any Castillian
Having lived and worked in Barcelona, but my knowledge of Basque amounting to no more than could could be written on only half of the back of the proverbial postcard
(does anyone else remember when there were non-picture postcards, with the address one side and all of the back available for the message?)
— stop going off at a tangent, C.)—sorry, superego
I’m not in a position myself to comment on the vividness or otherwise of the Basque language, but from nothing I’ve ever read about it have I ever been given the impression that Basque was a "limited" language, whether in terms of vividness or of anything else.
Sorry if this is not what you meant, WS, but my hackles tend to rise whenever anyone seems to disparage a (usually minority) language saying things like "it’s impossible to say such-and-such in X language)". It’s particularly galling when jeerers say such things as "Irish is so prehistoric it hasn’t even got a word for television: they say - would you believe it?—teilifís; the Welsh call a video recorder—get this - a recordydd fideo." What precise Anglo-Saxon roots do these people think tele-, vision, cassette, and record come from? English is so prehistoric! Why couldn’t they say "farsight" and "chestkin-graver" (oops, sorry, you can’t use "chest", that’s a Greek word, you know).
I’m simply not happy with the way Basque Batua (Common Basque) has been created -there were 38 dialects and they picked up freely what they wanted to be taught at school- and most important of all with its aims, which is to be the token of a nonsensical, whimpish Nationalism with no other aspirations than to get as much power as it can.
Before Franco grasped the seat in Madrid’s Palace of El Pardo, which he didn’t release until his late death, the Basque language was approximately spoken by a 30% of the population there… Now, the figures aren’t rising despite the strong effort of the Basque Government -some of whose members don’t even speak it- to enhance its use AND despise that of Castillian.
You see, Coemgenus, the problem with Basque is that it’s trying to be [I]imposed[/I] to people who, being as Basque as one can be, don’t speak it at home and would never speak it, but for the school. Thus, you generate dislike for the language, which is a pity, and, through its political usage -"those who speak Basque are Nationalists and the only rightful enough to claim the Basque Country for themselves"- even a certain loath, which is a greater pity for so ancient and venerable a language.
Now, they’ve even eliminated the option A in the Basque schooling system: "Everything in Castillian and Basque as a simple Subject", which is the method used in Ireland for Irish… What do you think that suggests? Since its use isn’t naturally enhanced further… they force people into either learning it or being deprived of education. Do you reckon it is a good way?
By the bye, among my friends we bestowed upon ourselves names regarding our families’ origins/surnames and sometimes own facial features, too… Somewhat childish, but funny anyway. We had the Greek, the Arab, etc. and I was called "Old Castillian", for my whole family comes therefrom as far as we can remember it, going further northwards when we mount back in time…. I chose as nickname when we played "Zahar Gaztelar"... Not Castillian, but Basque for it. I feel closer to Basque than to anything else in Spain.
Due to that it’s painful for me to see how rotten, perversed and deceiving the proposals of those Nationalists greedy of power are…
That’s all I have to say. I hope it contributes to improve your image of that short phrase.
I think I see that your beef is more with Basque politicians and policy than with the Basque language itself.
The Irish, too—and sadly—made a total pig’s ear (*) of language revival. The Welsh have been much more successful; the Israelis supremely so in the case of Hebrew. Even the Finns succeeded in re-establishing a language which 100 years ago most would have said was "on the way out".
None of that has anything to do with the worth per se of the languages concerned.
I would say, though, that "There were 38 dialects" is irrelevant: it is the fate of all surpressed and "peasant" languages to lack an over-arching standard form: "A language is a dialect with its own army".
English has far more than 38 dialects, but it also has a handful of national ruling dialects: that is what makes the difference.
Coemgenus.
—-
(*) Orejas de cerdo are an appetizing snack in Castile; a "dog’s breakfast" (=total mess)—or is it dinner?— in England… :-)
Of course my problem is with the politicians!! What should a person ever have against a language? :D
Coemgenus:
I would say, though, that "There were 38 dialects" is irrelevant: it is the fate of all surpressed and "peasant" languages to lack an over-arching standard form: "A language is a dialect with its own army".
My point there was that, although I’m deeply ignorant of the facts, but having spoken with experts in the matter; the so-to-speak "rearranging" of the Basque language has been made in a chaotic way, with no respect for most of those 38 dialects. As far as I know, the most priviledged dialect became the [I]bizkaizarra[/I] (from Vizcaya…), which is, by the bye, strongly influenced by Castillian.
I understand what you meant in your first post here, but, if you have a word for a thing in a tongue, shouldn’t you prefer it, when reconstructing that tongue, to whatever xenisms you may encounter? There shall be enough place to borrow words like "television"... Nevertheless, this hasn’t been seemingly the case with euskera.
[quote author=WonderingSpaniard link=board=translate;num=1094333603;start=0#10 date=09/06/04 at 07:38:00]Of course my problem is with the politicians!! What should a person ever have against a language?
My point there was that, although I’m deeply ignorant of the facts, but having spoken with experts in the matter; the so-to-speak "rearranging" of the Basque language has been made in a chaotic way, with no respect for most of those 38 dialects. As far as I know, the most priviledged dialect became the [I]bizkaizarra[/I] (from Vizcaya…), which is, by the bye, strongly influenced by Castillian.
Yes, I agree it’s often the politics of language that are the most depressing. The late formation of a ‘common standard’ dialect of Basque is not unusual. In fact it is often the case with minority languages that are undergoing revival. I don’t see any reason why vibrant revival through the creation of a new ‘common standard’ is wrong. It may be very difficult to achieve, but surely not wrong.
[quote author=Coemgenus link=board=translate;num=1094333603;start=0#9 date=09/05/04 at 11:25:44]The Irish, too—and sadly—made a total pig’s ear of language revival. The Welsh have been much more successful; the Israelis supremely so in the case of Hebrew. Even the Finns succeeded in re-establishing a language which 100 years ago most would have said was "on the way out".
None of that has anything to do with the worth per se of the languages concerned.
I would say, though, that "There were 38 dialects" is irrelevant: it is the fate of all surpressed and "peasant" languages to lack an over-arching standard form: "A language is a dialect with its own army".
English has far more than 38 dialects, but it also has a handful of national ruling dialects: that is what makes the difference.
I agree with this view. Welsh language revival is in a fairly good condition. I don’t think that Welsh will ever supplant English in the Principality now, but it is no longer on the way out. There is, of course, the political dimension: AMs using obscure Welsh wordplay in their speeches to the Assembly, and a Welsh-cultural superiority against monoglot, English-speaking Welsh people. Its poor relation, Cornish, has fared far worse. Cornish is really a dead language despite the efforts of keen revivalists. However, the Cornish literary tradition flourished in the middle ages and then quietly disappeared, and many dialects took its place. There are three official revival movements at each other’s throats - each promoting a markedly different vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation and orthography.
[quote author=brian_costello link=board=translate;num=1094333603;start=0#0 date=09/04/04 at 17:33:23]This language [Catalan] also evolved out of the popular or vulgar Latin of the Roman Empire. Like French, Spanish and Portuguese, it also contains some autocthonous pre-Roman elements Gos "dog" and Picarra "slate" from Iberian; Garra "claw" Gat "cat" and Coma "depression; small valley" from Celtic cf. Welsh gar "talon"; cath "cat"; cwm "valley".
I believe that the connexion between Catalan gat and Welsh cath is no greater than the connexion between the similar words in most langugaes. The other words do seem to suggest the presence of some Celtic vocabulary - a feature of every western Romance language.
[quote author=Brazilian_dude link=board=translate;num=1094333603;start=0#4 date=09/04/04 at 21:17:53]Catalan vowels can be accented like this: à è é í ó ò ú ï and there’s also the ç, which, as far as know, only exists in Portuguese and French (I think I have seen it in Turkish too, but I don’t know Turkish, so I may be wrong.)
Thank you, BD, for all of your information on Catalan grammar. I’d just like to fill in that the Turkish ç is pronounced like the initial sound in the English child. Likewise, the s with a cedilla represents the same sound as the initial in ship. I think you’re right that French, Portuguese and Turkish are the only major languages to use the cedilla in their orthography - Turkish orthography is early twentieth century.
[quote author=anders link=board=translate;num=1094333603;start=0#3 date=09/04/04 at 20:30:42]I remember when driving in Spain towards Barcelona and stopping to ask a guy for directions or something. I was rather irritated and embarrassed, because I found it difficult to understand what he said. Several years later, I got the suspicion that he had been speaking Catalan.
I have had people look incredulously at me when I tell them that the language they need for their holiday destination is Catalan rather than ‘Spanish’. Of course, most Brits go to Spain and realise that English-spoken-loudly shall be their chosen means of communication. The adventurous might include the odd word picked up from a Western.
I am still unsure what an EU official language is. The great injustice to me is that Maltese is official, and Catalan is not.
Will we hate Real Madrid as much as we hate Man U?
I have had people look incredulously at me when I tell them that the language they need for their holiday destination is Catalan rather than ‘Spanish’. Of course, most Brits go to Spain and realise that English-spoken-loudly shall be their chosen means of communication. The adventurous might include the odd word picked up from a Western.
I wouldn’t dare going that far, Garzo… If you have to choose a language to learn in order to make yourself understandable in Spain, no matter where, I’d prefer Castillian. Not in vain, that’s the only spoken tongue throughout the whole territory and besides the official one. Of course, if you’re lucky enough to speak Catalan and spend your holidays in Catalonia, Valencia or Mallorca, you’re rightfully entitled to trying it. However, in that example, so many young people from the whole Peninsula get the chance to go to the coast for a summer-job that many of the waiters don’t speak a word of Catalan… and those who do will certainly speak Castillian, too.
On the other hand, the situation anders lived was really induced by baid faith on the part of his "helper"... I’m sure he could speak perfect Castillian and knew that his interlocutor didn’t have a clue what Catalan concerns… Why on earth did he have to show off that he had little to do with "Spanish"? Should I answer in Castillian if I’m addressed in English in Madrid, just because "here we speak Castillian, sir…"?
I am still unsure what an EU official language is. The great injustice to me is that Maltese is official, and Catalan is not.
Catalan has around 6 million speakers. Maltese around 200.000. Notwithstanding, the EU doesn’t bestow officiality regarding number of speakers… Why, we could all speak German! After all, it’s the mother-tongue of a fourth of the inhabitants of the EU. As for myself, I would accept even speaking swahili in Europe’s institutions, if we could solve the bureaucratic chaos we’re in now.
Nevertheless, since several months ago, Catalan, Basque and Galician may be used in the EU Institutions. The Spanish State pays for the costs of the translators.
Will we hate Real Madrid as much as we hate Man U?
Simply: ??? What do you mean? I don’t know what that has to do with the rest of the post… And I’d better not try to make guesses. (Don’t worry I don’t support Real Madrid… I just want to know what makes you type that, all of a sudden.)
It doesn’t matter if others have posted on the same topic while you were composing such a detailed and interesting response.
