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Latin - the left hand does not know?
Posted: 02 January 2004 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Hi,
I’ve come across the phrase
quid faciat dextera sinistram scire vetat
in a Trinity College Dublin citation in 1928.

I think it means "the left hand is forbidden to know what the right hand is doing" and I wonder if I’m right?
Padraig
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Posted: 03 January 2004 02:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Greetings, pomorain!

I believe this is a reference to Matthew 6: 2-4.

From the NIV translation/edition:

[sup]2[/sup]"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.  [sup]3[/sup]But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,  [sup]4[/sup]so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

-Tim

P.S. Here’s Matt 6:3 from the Vulgate Latin:

te autem faciente elemosynam nesciat sinistra tua quid faciat dextera tua

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Posted: 03 January 2004 03:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Thank you, that would make sense: the person receiving the honour was not one for blowing her own trumpet.
Padraig

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Posted: 03 January 2004 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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sinistr.am           ADJ    1 2 ACC S F POS            
sinister, sinistra -um, sinistrior -or -us, sinistimus -a -um  ADJ  
left, improper,adverse; inauspicious;
sinistr.am           N      1 1 ACC S F                
sinistra, sinistrae  N  F  
left hand;

sc.ire               V      4 1 PRES ACTIVE  INF 0 X    
sc.ire               V      4 1 PRES PASSIVE IMP 2 S    
scio, scire, scivi, scitus  V  
know, understand;
* vet.at               V      1 1 PRES ACTIVE  IND 3 S    
veto, vetare, vetavi, vetatus  V  TRANS    Late
veto, vetare, vetui, vetitus  V  TRANS  
forbid, prohibit; reject, veto; be an obstacle to; prevent;

Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid

By Jove, I think you’ve got it!

Sitran

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Posted: 04 January 2004 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Thanks to all for your help. I fear I have now found an addictive website - this one.
Padraig
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Posted: 28 April 2005 04:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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But I haven’t found a reply to the question: it must be a precise translation of the phrase. Here is my version:

He forbids to the left hand to know what the right hand is doing.

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Posted: 28 April 2005 04:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Well, if it has to be literal, here you go: The right hand forbids the left hand from knowing what it (the right hand) does/the first does OR The right hand prohibits the left hand to know what it (the right hand)/the first does.

Brazilian dude

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Posted: 28 April 2005 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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To Brazilian_dude

Both versions, of mine and of yours, are correct. And there’s no third version. Are you agreed?

NB: However, instead of ‘he’ may be ‘she’ or ‘it’ in my version.

Regards.

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Posted: 28 April 2005 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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I would say that your version would require a noun or a pronoun filling the subject slot, especially as I don’t have any preceding sentence to provide me a better context.  The sentence would then read: quid faciat dextera ille/illa/homo/vir/femina/puella, etc. sinistram scire vetat, but I agree on the rest.

Brazilian dude

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Posted: 28 April 2005 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Well yuri, in view of faciat being in subjunctiv mood, I would rather hone the sentence into, "The right hand prevents the left from knowing what it is going to do."

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Posted: 28 April 2005 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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But faciat being in the subjunctive mood doesn’t alter the translation into English in any way, it’s just in the subjunctive because that’s the mood normally required in subordinate clauses.  Also remember that Latin didn’t have a continuous or future subjunctive, so the translation into English could be either way, depending on the preference of the speaker.

Brazilian dude

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Posted: 28 April 2005 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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To Brazilian_dude

1.Without omission of a personal pronoun we’ll get a new meaning:
Quid faciat dextera. ille sinistram scire vetat =
It’s he who forbids to know to the left hand what the right hand is doing.

2. I was erronious when I declared  that there are no additional versions for a translator. Here is, at least, one more:
He forbids to know to the left hand, what the right hand serves for.

Regards.

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Posted: 29 April 2005 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Right, that’s why I suggested:

The right hand forbids the left hand from knowing what it (the right hand) does/the first does OR The right hand prohibits the left hand to know what it (the right hand)/the first does.

And said that Yurifinki’s version would be more like:

It’s he who forbids to know to the left hand what the right hand is doing.

Brazilian dude

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Posted: 29 April 2005 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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To Brazilian_dude

I have not understood >:(. Please, answer with yes or no:
1. Are you agreed that the subject slot may be empty or zero-filled ?
2. Is correct my 3rd version of translation ?

Regards

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Posted: 29 April 2005 06:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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1.Yes

2.No

Brazilian dude

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