In 1971, "Quinto Lingo" published an article saying signs that say "West German" spoken here and "East German" spoken here might soon start appearing on both sides of the international border between the two German states. This was 22 years after Germany was partitioned in 1949 between a West Germany (The Federal Republic) allied with the Americans and an East Germany (The German Democratic Republic) allied with the Russians, and linguists were already begining to notice some changes in the German language in the two countries. As a "Seattle Times" article said a few years back "West Germans did their grocery shopping in a ‘Supermarkt’ while East Germans did theirs in a Kaufhalle’. West German children addressed their mothers as ‘Mama’ but East Germans still addressed theirs by the older ‘Mutti.’ "
A similar linguistic rift seems to have taken place in Korea, another country divided by the Cold War with a pro-American South and a pro-Soviet North. For example, South Korean has ‘hel’ri’kop’tuh’ and ‘tei’pu’ra’koduh’ for "helicopter" and "tape recorder" but North Korean has chik-sung-gi and ro-guhm-gi respectively. South Korean has ‘chok’ul’rit’ for "choclate" but North Korean dictionaries list the pre-World War II Korean word cho-ko-lett-uh (from Japanese chokoreto).
The "Lonely Planet Korean Phrasebook" mentions "ice cream" as another example. South Koreans use ‘ai’suhk’urim’ but the North Korean government has tried to replace it with a "pure" Korean word or-uhm-po-sung-i which "Lonely Planet" says means "ice-flluffy-thing.’ However, it says that most North Koreans still use the older word ai’suhk’urim for this food.
The Germans have a word "Sprachausgliederung" ("Speech spin-off"; Speech separation") which refers to a single language separating into two new languages. Linguists aren’t quite sure that a true Sprachausgliederung happened in Germany but some people claim that Germany was reunified almost just in time. Had Communist rule lasted in East Germany for another 20 years, the West Germans would never have gotten its people back. In that case, the East Germans would have inevitably developed a language of their own as different from West German as, say Danish. Conceivably, language separation could happen in Korea but its hard to tell for sure if it really will. The Koreans have been a homogeneous people and culture for a long time and in turn, it could take a very long time for that to ever change. :)
In that case, the East Germans would have inevitably developed a language of their own as different from West German as, say Danish.
In 20 years? Americanization is common, whether in Germany, Korea, or elsewhere. Puerto Ricans who live in New York use different words, but when they go home they speak the same language. Using different words doesn’t mean speaking another language, otherwise I would say that Philly doesn’t speak my language. I’ll admit that West Virginia and the Bronx might speak different languages, but they have more than a cold war dividing them. And still I wouldn’t say the difference is comparable to German and Danish.
Sprachausgliederung (my mouth feels like it just came back from the gym, actually that good feeling of using muscles you didn’t know were available) I think is unlikely now that we have the internet. If anything, I’d say that most people who are on it (and the Germans are) are less likely to not understand each other and more likely to learn new words. A new language would be great, but I don’t see it happening over a separation lasting a few decades.
A handful of differing or similar words mean nothing when comparing other languages to one another. German grammar and phonology hasn’t changed a bit. So, it’s still the same language.
There are more than a few lexical differences involved in the dual variaties of these languages (German; Korean) - probably at least 500 but I’m not going to try to list all of them on this site. A good book to read for more of them is "Pluricentric Languages" by Michael Clyne who lists German and Korean as being ‘pluricentric’ as well as English, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Swedish.
The "Quinto Lingo" article on East-West German mentioned that sometimes even the same words have different connotations on opposite sides of the border. These would include words like "freedom", "friendship" "Democratic", " Fascist" and "Imperialist."
Finally, my post is not saying that separate languages ever developed in the two parts of Korea or Germany; only that the potential existed and may still exist in Korea which has not been reunified yet. ;)
"freedom", "friendship" "Democratic", " Fascist" and "Imperialist."
These words mean different things when I’m speaking to someone who lives across the street. But we are both speaking English. We both say had and if and were and why. This is how I know they’re politically mistaken, because I know what they are saying and recognise their logic. If they were speaking Icelandic I would not be so swift to disagree..
Anders:
<<< A handful of differing or similar words mean nothing when comparing other languages to one another. German grammar and phonology hasn’t changed a bit. So, it’s still the same language.<<<
Amen to this.
A ‘handful’ (or ‘500’ as Brian told us)... it doesn’t matter that much when comparing languages. It takes a bit more than a set of bilingual dictionaries to compare two languages.
No offense, but you are kind of missing the point although I admit that my presentation of the topic was somewhat brief and choppy and probably left some room for misunderstandings. But now is a time to clear them up!
Language separations have happened throughout history. The most famous are the Romance languages from Imperial Latin: Italian, Spanish Portuguese, Catalan, French etc.) . However, Swedish and Icelandic were the same language until about 1100 A.D. So were German and Dutch until the 12th century A.D. However, no one in history has ever had the chance to observe a language separation (ein Sprachgliederung) while it was happening. Germany and Korea were seen by some (and not without reason) as possible linguistic laboratories to watch this unfold. The Communists did not allow people in their parts of these countries to communicate with their countrymen on the other sides that were allied with the democratic West . They also tried to "reinvent" the languages in all of the countries they took over, introducing new words or new meanings to words . (George Orwell alludes to this in his novel 1984 although he felt that capitalist countries would eventually do it too. In the novel, the Oceanic Ministry of Peace has inscribed the words on a great white pyramid, its symbol of heirarchical power: War is Peace - Freedom is Slavery -Ignorance is Strength ).
Linguists believe that all language separations start out as just two or three dialects of a single language with minor differences in vocabulary and pronuciation. The differences increase exponentially over time to the point where the speakers can no longer understand each other and voilà, you finally have two or more new languages. 8)
[quote author=brian_costello link=board=translate;num=1126250978;start=0#7 date=09/12/05 at 01:59:38]However, Swedish and Icelandic were the same language until about 1100 A.D. So were German and Dutch until the 12th century A.D.
I have the impression that this is a bit too simplistic and too black and white. I also think that you’re stretching the terms Dutch and German, or rather, the meaning(s) of the word "language" up to a point where it doesn’t mean a thing anymore.
I am aware of the many meanings of "a language", but here i think that you’re mixing up a few things to make your explanation a bit too spectacular, too black and white, well, in short, too wrong.
I am aware that an author as Hendrik van Veldeke / Heinrich von Veldeke figures in both Dutch and German literary anthologies, but is that a reason to conclude that Dutch and German were the same language until the 12th century?
I hope that this "German and Dutch were the same until the 12th century" is just a ‘boutade’, and that you understand the historical and contemporary situation better than this.
Contemporary people living in the area where von Veldeke once came from, and which crosses three current national borders, still speak the same language (i mean, mutually intelligeable). So by your very own logic, a logic which ignores the Dutch-German dialect continuum, Dutch and German are still the same language.
However, no one in history has ever had the chance to observe a language separation (ein Sprachgliederung) while it was happening. Germany and Korea were seen by some (and not without reason) as possible linguistic laboratories to watch this unfold. The Communists did not allow people in their parts of these countries to communicate with their countrymen on the other sides that were allied with the democratic West . They also tried to "reinvent" the languages in all of the countries they took over, introducing new words or new meanings to words.
Bad bad commies. But this kind of things happen in most countries, whether bordering or not) where the same language is spoken, even in the two parliamentarian monarchies called The Netherlands and Belgium (at least Flanders).
Linguists believe that all language separations start out as just two or three dialects of a single language with minor differences in vocabulary and pronuciation. The differences increase exponentially over time to the point where the speakers can no longer understand each other and voilà, you finally have two or more new languages. 8)
Linguists are also aware that calling variant X1 and variant X2 language A and language B depends upon many factors, not in the least extra-linguistic ones. It just depends whether or not one focusses upon the differences (results of your Sprachgliederung) or the similarities and why one wants to focus upon those differences. Most often indeed for political reasons, see Serbo-Kroatian, or do i need to say Serbian, Kroatian and Bosnian?
Linguists and non-linguists give labels, labels are handy, but one has to realise that the linguistic labels are very arbitrary [edit: and how can i say, sometimes variable]. Most linguists realise this. Most non-linguists don’t.
[quote author=Brazilian_dude link=board=translate;num=1126250978;start=0#9 date=09/12/05 at 11:41:36]Frank, I think you should be careful when writing black or white because Greendog is watching us and he’ll call you a racist.
87A087, the infamously beautiful background of ‘post reply’ is in my opinion the most ugly color to appear on this site (or on the internet, for that matter). And more doglike than green. While we’re on the subject of chroma, what’s with that glowing disco-party green on the ‘G’ [glow=red,2,300]TEXT[/glow] directly above me?
And why are smileyfaces so damn yellow?
Yeah, I dont think the glow command works… can anyone see it? or the [shadow=red,left,300]Shadow[/shadow] for that matter… [font=Verdana]verdana[/font] size
Sry, just testing out some other buttons….
Now, which is the chroma? That green in the 1st layer?
Overall, i do like this color scheme, in general, for the agora
Well, i do lose count/track of my impulses from time to time. Ha, so, it’s really that annoying? Like, if i made this all red, you’d go stark raving mad? Hehe,
J
<i won’t, just don’t tempt me… i could see how it could be, actually…>
