Does anyone know whence does this [ (il) F A G O T T O] word come?

Picked this up from another thread, but thought it properly belonged here. There’s something wrong with this formulation. It’s so obscure that I only just noticed it.

The AHD gives the definititions of the adverb and the conjunction "whence":

——————————————————————————————————-
ADVERB: 1. From where; from what place: Whence came this traveler?
2. From what origin or source: Whence comes this splendid feast?  
CONJUNCTION: 1. Out of which place; from or out of which.
2. By reason of which; from which: The dog was coal black from nose to tail, whence the name Shadow.  
———————————————————————————————————

In neither example is the "do" construction used. In fact, using the "do" construction together with "whence" sounds very odd indeed. Notice that the example "Whence came this traveler" is totally different from what would be the more modern rendering: "Whence did this traveler come?"

I guess my question is: what’s the deal?

Anyone out there have any theories?

- PW

Probably it sounds wrong because it’s blending an archaicism with the newer construction ‘to do+[verb]’  - we want to hear it either as ‘Where does/did this word come from?’ or ‘Whence comes/came this word’, not some combination of the two.

~Silver

Yes, I was wondering about that, Silver. I simply couldn’t remember at what point the "do" construction was introduced. I think you’ve nailed it, though.

- PW

[quote author=Palewriter link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#0 date=04/10/03 at 23:12:11][center]...[/center]2. By reason of which; from which: The dog was coal black from nose to tail, whence the name Shadow.[center]...[/center]

Found this reminder of interest, as there exists another somewhat archaic word which as regards temporal flow is diametrically opposed to «whence», but which in the above sense can be used interchangeably. I’m thinking, of course, of «hence», of which the AHD has to say the following….

hence
[...] (hns)
adv.

For this reason; therefore: handmade and hence expensive.
From this source: They grew up in the Sudan; hence their interest in Nubian art.
From this time; from now: A year hence it will be forgotten.

From this place; away from here: Get you hence!
From this life.

————————————————————————————————————————
[Middle English hennes, from here : henne (from Old English heonan; see ko- in Indo-European roots) + -es, adv. suff. ; see -s3.]

Note that it would be perfectly adequate to say : «The dog was coal black from nose to tail, hence the name Shadow.» And economical too ; all one has to do is remove the superfluous «w» from the original sentence….

Henri

From this place; away from here: Get you hence!

Sigh… How I wish they would have frolicked longer in the ancient forms…

Hie thee hence!

-Tim

Get you hence!

Whither shall I go?  :D

[quote author=Palewriter link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#2 date=04/10/03 at 23:35:17]I simply couldn’t remember at what point the "do" construction was introduced.

It was introduced during the Renaissance.  The writings of Shakespeare, for example, show both the older form, without do (‘no ‘faith, my coz, wish not a man from England’ Henry V, IV,iii.34). as well as the newer form, with do - ‘O, do not wish one more’ (IV.iii.37).

The AHD calls these old adverbial inflections "fossil remains of dead cases that are fast disappearing from the language…In the case of hither (=to here) even the preposition has been abandoned. One says, not “I came to here,” but simply “I came here.” In the case of hence, however, from here is still used, and so with from there and from where."

The AHD also notes that while the construction from whence has long been criticized as redundant, it has been in steady use by writers since the 14th century, most notably in “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help”.

Location    
here                        
there                                          
where                                                        

To location
hither
thither
whither

From location
hence
thence
whence

                       
Ilka

Source: Adverbs of place

[quote author=John Rastall link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#5 date=04/18/03 at 14:32:28]Whither shall I go?  :D

Why, to a nunnery, of course !...

Henri

[quote author=KatyBr link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#9 date=05/06/03 at 15:51:12]
But wouldst they receive a man, forthwith or send him hence?

My money’s on hence. Fifthwith.

- PW

[quote author=Palewriter link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#10 date=05/06/03 at 16:12:26]
My money’s on hence. Fifthwith.

That reminds me of the "once, twice, thrice ... " thread and a piece I read ages ago where some wag had added one to all the references to number he found.

As in: "Twice upon a time, a man went fifth to mow ... " etc. I forget how it went but it made me rotflol!  ;D ;D ;D

Selected verses with whence from Fitzgerald’s translation of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.  My favorite is XXX:

(First Edition)

XXIX.

Into this Universe, and why not knowing,
Nor whence, like Water willy-nilly flowing:
  And out of it, as Wind along the Waste,
I know not whither, willy-nilly blowing.

XXX.

What, without asking, hither hurried whence?
And, without asking, whither hurried hence!
  Another and another Cup to drown
The Memory of this Impertinence!

LXVII.

Ah, with the Grape my fading Life provide,
And wash my Body whence the life has died,
  And in a Windingsheet of Vineleaf wrapt,
So bury me by some sweet Gardenside.

LXXII.

Alas, that Spring should vanish with the Rose!
That Youth’s sweet-scented Manuscript should close!
  The Nightingale that in the Branches sang,
Ah, whence, and whither flown again, who knows!

(Fifth Edition)

XXIX.

Into this Universe, and Why not knowing
Nor Whence, like Water willy-nilly flowing;
  And out of it, as Wind along the Waste,
I know not Whither, willy-nilly blowing.

XXX.

What, without asking, hither hurried Whence?
And, without asking, Whither hurried hence!
  Oh, many a Cup of this forbidden Wine
Must drown the memory of that insolence!

LXXIV.

YESTERDAY This Day’s Madness did prepare;
TO-MORROW’s Silence, Triumph, or Despair:
  Drink! for you not know whence you came, nor why:
Drink! for you know not why you go, nor where.

XCI.

Ah, with the Grape my fading life provide,
And wash the Body whence the Life has died,
  And lay me, shrouded in the living Leaf,
By some not unfrequented Garden-side.

XCVI.

Yet Ah, that Spring should vanish with the Rose!
That Youth’s sweet-scented manuscript should close!
  The Nightingale that in the branches sang,
Ah whence, and whither flown again, who knows!

[quote author=John Rastall link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#11 date=05/06/03 at 17:07:17]
That reminds me of the "once, twice, thrice ... " thread and a piece I read ages ago where some wag had added one to all the references to number he found.

As in: "Twice upon a time, a man went fifth to mow ... " etc. I forget how it went but it made me rotflol!  ;D ;D ;D

I believe it was Victor Borge.

[quote author=Linnet link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#6 date=04/19/03 at 00:58:23]

It was introduced during the Renaissance.  The writings of Shakespeare, for example, show both the older form, without do (‘no ‘faith, my coz, wish not a man from England’ Henry V, IV,iii.34). as well as the newer form, with do - ‘O, do not wish one more’ (IV.iii.37).

Shakespeare was all about the syllables, of course!

[quote author=rosewoman link=board=grammar;num=1050030731;start=0#13 date=05/07/03 at 15:39:43]
I believe it was Victor Borge.

You don’t have a source, do you? I’d love to revisit it!

J

It was Victor Borge, but it wasn’t Shakespeare.

[hr]JACK AND THE TWODERFUL BEANS

Twice upon a time there lived a boy named Jack in the twoderful land of Califivenia. Two day Jack, a double-minded lad, decided three go fifth three seek his fivetune.

After making sure that Jack nine a sandwich and drank some Eight-Up, his mother elevenderly said, "Threedeloo, threedeloo. Try three be back by next Threesday." Then she cheered, "Three, five, seven, nine. Who do we apprecinine? Jack, Jack, yay!"

Jack set fifth and soon met a man wearing a four-piece suit and a threepee. Fifthrightly Jack asked the man, "I’m a Califivenian. Are you two three?"

"Cerelevenly," replied the man, offiving the high six. "Anytwo five elevennis?"

"Not threeday," answered Jack inelevently. "But can you help me three locnine my fivetune?"

"Sure," said the man. "Let me sell you these twoderful beans."

Jack’s inthreeition told him that the man was a three-faced triple-crosser. Elevensely Jack shouted, "I’m not behind the nine ball. I’m a college gradunine, and I know what rights our fivefathers crenined in the Constithreetion. Now let’s get down three baseven about these beans."

The man tripled over with laughter. "Now hold on a third," he responded. "There’s no need three make such a three-do about these beans. If you twot, I’ll give them three you."

Well, there’s no need three elabornine on the rest of the tale. Jack oned in on the giant and two the battle for the golden eggs. His mother and he lived happily fivever after—and so on, and so on, and so fifth.

© Copyright 2000 Annals of Improbable Research (AIR)[hr]

From HotAIR: Four Cheers Five Victor Borge

-Tim