Last night I was reading a book ("The Pale Criminal" by Philip Kerr, if you’re interested) and came across the phrase: "I don’t honestly know".

I would probably say "I honestly don’t know" and would like to know if the former expression is correct and if so, is there a (subtle) difference in meaning?

If there is a difference, it’s extremely subtle.

1) I honestly don’t know.
2) I don’t honestly know.

Both carry the same meaning in essence. Possibly, (2) gives more stress to the adverb. This becomes more apparent if you subtstute another adverb:

3) I really don’t know.
4) I don’t really know.

If the same holds true of the first pair, and I suspect it does, then (1) would be a little more emphatic than (2), which seems a tad more tenuous.

- PW

And if there is a difference, then does this mean something subtly different, as well?

I don’t know, honestly.

or

I don’t know, really.

I’m with PW.

-Tim

Tim,

I’m with you, too. Honest.  

It’s certainly an interesting stylistic question, but subtle almost to the "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?"-degree.

- PW

I think there is no difference, essentially!

Either one is correct, but I can’t see a difference in meaning.

Honestly, I don’t.

Sitran

I don’t think I’ve ever heard ‘honestly’ separate ‘don’t’ and the verb it modifies. It sounds extremely strange to me.

On the other hand, I could imagine, if the tone of voice were just so, that it could imply that, while the person doesn’t know something by honest methods, they might know it by dishonest methods. But that’s a stretch; I doubt the author meant to imply that.

~Silver
Weird usage!

I don’t think I’ve ever heard ‘honestly’ separate ‘don’t’ and the verb

Hm. Interesting. Could it be a Brit thing? Lots of adverbs live happily between the subject and "don’t". So why not "honestly"?

How about this one:

"I routinely don’t listen to his whining."

"I don’t routinely listen to his whining."

- PW

[quote author=Silver Han link=board=grammar;num=1066294265;start=0#5 date=10/16/03 at 17:53:23]I don’t think I’ve ever heard ‘honestly’ separate ‘don’t’ and the verb it modifies.

You don’t honestly expect us to believe that, do you?

-Tim

You don’t honestly expect us to believe that, do you?

I suspect she honestly does.

- PW

Hm. Curious. I most likely have heard it in usages such as those. Yet, it still somehow carries a different flavor, a different tone of voice… in my mind at least. I’m a bit hard-pressed to explain it exactly; can anyone formulate just what I’m trying to say more clearly than I’m doing so?  ;D

Lots of adverbs live happily between the subject and "don’t".

Yep. That’s why I refered specifically to honestly, not adverbs in general. Though you have produced sufficient counter-examples to the former as well.  :-[

So here’s the question: Why DOES "I don’t honestly know" sound wrong, or at least a little off? Is there some more general rule  lurking anywhere in here, or is it just a peculiar individual quirk of the language? Placing adverbs in different spots in a sentence changes the emphasis, but why do some changes sound unnatural with individual adverbs?

~Silver

it still somehow carries a different flavor, a different tone of voice… in my mind at least

I agree completely. To my ear there’s a huge difference between "I honestly don’t know" and "I don’t honestly know". As you say, it’s hard to put one’s finger on it, but it’s certainly there.

Adverbs are really sneaky things. Probably because they modify actions rather than qualify nouns.

Let’s do another sub and see what happens:

"I really don’t like pizza."
"I don’t really like pizza."

Hm. Big difference.

I wonder why?

why do some changes sound unnatural with individual adverbs

Great question. I guess if we knew the answer, we’d be Professors of Linguistics with fat paychecks, adoring doctoral students and a limo to run us around.  ;D

- PW

The Handbook of Technical Writing has this to say (my emphasis):

Placement of Adverbs

An adverb may appear almost anywhere in a sentence, but its posiiton may affect the meaning of the sentence. Avoid placing an adverb between two verb forms where it can be read ambiguously as modifying either.

Change: The operator tried belatedly to close the relief valve.
To: The operator belatedly tried to close the relief valve.

The adverb is commonly placed in front of the verb it modifies.

-Tim

NYAAAAARG! My post’s been etherized!!! Jeez, I wonder just how many of my brilliant insights have been lost due to this recent upheaval. This is the second post I’ve caught AWOL…

Anyway, what I said originally was pretty much to the point that perhaps the "wrong" sound was due to the fact that "honestly" in this sentence has nothing to do with one’s moral integrity, but rather is merely used to make the sentence more emphatic. Since changing the position of an adverb in a sentence can change the emphasis, the two intensifiers (honestly and its position) clash, making it unclear. Now that I’m re-posting this, it’s a little redundant in light of PW’s post, but hey, a little redundancy never hurt anyone, controlled substances being excluded.

~Silver

Seldom do I post, hence, a mere paucity of my posts have been lost to this new disaster - for which we have braced ourselves. At least we had some inclination that this would occur, as opposed to the Great Debacle of yestertime - so many posts erased….the horror…

                 §

Seldom do I post, hence, a mere paucity of my posts have been lost to this new disaster

Golly, §, do you talk this way, too?  ;)

- PW

if he says paucity out loud

I don’t think I’ve EVER heard anyone say "paucity" out loud.

this is a site to show off our lexicons

I didn’t know that.

- PW
who desperately tries to muster up a BIG word, and fails