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dependence part two
Posted: 10 December 2004 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Wai, it’s so good to be back.  As I lack the tenacity of a few regulars, I have been checking the Agora in every three days or so.

I have a question long awaiting to be asked ever since the Agora become silent.  Is the following sentence grammatical one as a rewrite for, "Whether the party wins or not largely depends on your effort."

It depends largely on your effort whether the party wins or not.

Flam

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Fortunae rota volvitur; descendo minoratus; alter in altum tollitur; nimis exaltatus.

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Posted: 10 December 2004 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Yes!  It sounds alright to me!

But…maybe a trifle awkward.

The "it" has come first here, and replaces the phrase "whether the party wins or not."

But it sounds more like it is replacing "the party."

The party depends largely on your effort whether it wins or not.

Now we are sounding more like:

The party depends on your effort in the case of a win, or in the case of a lose.

Slightly different than what is meant here:

The party depends on your effort whether it is to win or not.

The party’s winning (or not) depends on your effort.

Your effort determines whether the party wins or not!

Also, in the orgininal sentense:

"Whether the party wins or not largely depends on your effort."

I don’t like "largely depends."  I think that "depends largely" flows better.

Sitran  

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“Science in its ideology sees itself as doing a fearless exploration of the unknown. Most of the time it is a fearful exploration of the almost known.”&&&&- Rupert Sheldrake &&&&

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Posted: 10 December 2004 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Thnx Sitran.  How have you bee?  Tell me of your fames or havocs that you have made while out there.

It is not yet clear to me whether the quality of my sentence depends on the type of the main verb (depend on) or a more structual constrain is at work here.  I suspect that it-expletive cannot replace a subject consisting of whether-clause.

Is the following a good (i.e. grammatical) sentence?
It is not yet clear whether he can come or not.
[As a rewrite for "Whether he can come or not is not yet clear."]

How about an if-clause subject?
It is not yet clear if he can come.
[As a rewrite for "If he can come is not clear."]

Subject with that-clause seems to be no problem.  Indeed, in terms of stylistics the rewrite is preferred over the original.
It is good that we came back here.
[As a rewrite for "That we came back here is good."]

Flam

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Posted: 10 December 2004 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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It is clear that "it" can  replace "whether..or not" as the subject:

As you say:

"It is not yet clear whether he can come or not.
[As a rewrite for "Whether he can come or not is not yet clear."]"

Both sound good to me!

I think "it" works with "if" too, although I do find myself changing it to "whether" in my mind.  (Dialect?)

It works with "that," here too in your example, but when the "that" phrase is made the subject it sounds "incomplete," but you hear it all the time.

I think you might be right about the verb "depends on" making these "party" sentenses awkward.

Perhaps it is because "depends on" is used so often with "whether" without an intervening object.

"It depends on whether or not the party wins."

"It depends on whether or not it rains."

"It depends on whether you will or not."

But..

"It depends on his attitude whether you will or not."

Sounds grammatical, but there is some hint of redundancy or something here.

Not sure!  That is clear!

Sitran

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“Science in its ideology sees itself as doing a fearless exploration of the unknown. Most of the time it is a fearful exploration of the almost known.”&&&&- Rupert Sheldrake &&&&

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